Brooke Smith | Strong Female Leads

Brooke Smith (Big Sky, The Silence of the Lambs, Grey's Anatomy) becomes my favorite character in every project she joins, and this episode felt like a breezy chat with a close friend. Brooke answered my questions about the satisfaction of bringing a character like Merilee to life on Big Sky, her relationship with Darla the dog aka Precious, and I called dibs on hiring her as a therapist should she ever change career paths.

Follow Brooke on Instagram and Twitter | Catch up on Big Sky on Hulu or ABC | Watch a trailer for Them coming to Amazon April 9th

Tunnel Vision: Goodfellas vs I, Tonya

Two movies about the pursuit of a specific lifestyle and feeling powerless — it's Goodfellas vs I, Tonya.

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Every episode of Tasteless, I take a critically acclaimed film and compare it to one that shares the same themes but didn't get the attention it deserves — and explain why that second movie is my pick. This week: two Oscar winners about the pursuit of a specific lifestyle and feeling powerless. It's Goodfellas versus I, Tonya. And yes, I was furious to discover the I, Tonya poster literally has the pull quote "the Goodfellas of figure skating." Someone thought of this comparison before me and put it on the poster.

Goodfellas

The story of Henry Hill and his life in the mafia, covering his relationship with his wife Karen and his mob partners Jimmy Conway and Tommy DeVito.

This movie came out in 1990, has a 96% on Rotten Tomatoes, and is number 17 on the IMDB Top 250. Joe Pesci won an Oscar for Best Supporting Actor for playing Tommy DeVito. It was also nominated for Best Picture, Best Supporting Actress for Lorraine Bracco, Best Director for Martin Scorsese, Best Adapted Screenplay, and Best Film Editing.

I like this movie, mostly because I love Lorraine Bracco. We're going to talk about her. But let's talk Ray Liotta first, who plays Henry Hill. Henry Hill is a real man on whom this book was based. Ray Liotta was so attractive. I knew him better from Chantix commercials and I hope he managed to stop smoking. In Goodfellas, he always looks like he has eyeliner on in a very attractive way. I also realized while watching that I know him maybe best from voicing Tommy Vercetti in Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, a game I used to play for hours on the original Xbox.

Ray Liotta is our protagonist, our guy, the one doing the narration. He's a little more even-keeled than the other guys because he's the most normal, the most human, the easiest to empathize with. A lot of the movie is just him listing foods. He loves talking about foods. Made me very hungry. There's a whole scene where they're in prison and he's talking about the foods that are being made. There's another scene where he's voicing over all the things he has to get done — the cops are following him, there's a wire, he has to drop stuff off, call this person, get someone's lucky hat — I gotta chop the veal, I gotta chop the tomatoes, I gotta get a nice sear on the things. He was cooking some full meat as an appetizer. It was a big to-do. This movie will make you very hungry. I actually, after watching it, ordered pizza from a fancy place and it sucked. It sucked so hard and I'm mad about it.

Robert De Niro — also a hunk in this movie, but I would say he's a hunk now, and that I was attracted to him in the film called Dirty Grandpa. This role unfortunately is kind of just a worse version of his role in The Godfather Part II. He's just supporting as Jimmy Conway. And apparently on set he was very obsessed with realism and authenticity — he wanted to use real money for a scene where Jimmy hands out money because he didn't like the way fake money felt in his hands. IMDB claims the prop master gave De Niro $5,000 of his own money. At the end of each take, no one was allowed to leave the set until all the money was returned and counted.

It got me thinking — if Robert De Niro said, I need $5,000, you'll get it back, would I get it for him? I think I would. If I had $5,000, if that was all my savings, I'd be like, okay, here, I just went to the bank. Is this good enough for you, Mr. De Niro? Also, he was always asking questions like, how would the real Jimmy do something? How would he apply his ketchup? And Henry Hill is just like, oh my God, because the real Henry Hill talked about this movie — he claims Robert De Niro was calling him multiple times a day. Robert De Niro sounds a little clingy.

Joe Pesci is Tommy DeVito. He is always screaming and shooting people. Henry Hill had a rude little factoid about him — Henry Hill said Joe Pesci's portrayal of Tommy DeSimone was 90 to 99% accurate with one notable exception: the real Tommy DeSimone was massively built. Very rude. Joe Pesci is a little wise guy. He's like, hey, you think I'm funny? Funny like a clown? I'm gonna shoot you. Pop pop. I don't like that unhinged chaotic energy.

What I do like is a little character named Karen, played by the original Karen, played by Lorraine Bracco — who I know you know as Angela Rizzoli, the Rizzoli matriarch in Rizzoli & Isles. Love her from that. That's why I watched Goodfellas: to watch Angela Rizzoli.

What I love about her character is Karen is very down for whatever's going on. She says — because we get to hear from her in the narration — look, other women would not have been into this. He asked me to hide the gun and it turned me on. All right, Karen, cool. She wears a lot of great sweaters.

The lens through which I look at these films is a lot of the time: why isn't there more women? It's a big problem I have with a lot of these gangster movies. What's most frustrating is they always have one really good woman. Lorraine Bracco in Goodfellas is such an interesting character. When we see her with the other mob wives, she doesn't quite gel there. She doesn't quite fit in, because I think in another life she could have been the Henry Hill. She could have been the mobster, because she likes a little bit of danger and there's this undercurrent with her where nothing is what you think it's going to be. I would say the same about Casino — Sharon Stone is so incredible in that film and it's like, why are we even looking at anyone else?

Lorraine Bracco, in talking about this movie, said she found the shoot emotionally difficult because it was such a male-dominated cast. She realized if she didn't make her work important, it would probably end up on the cutting room floor. What's fascinating about that is yes, they could have carved her out of this movie. Absolutely. And I think it wouldn't have been the hit that it was. She adds something perhaps intangible, something important, something human — seeing Ray Liotta through her eyes, seeing the way she views this world. He is stars in his eyes, wants to be a mobster, loves these guys. Lorraine Bracco is kind of like, I mean, it's fine. I don't know why we have to spend every weekend hanging out with them.

It's crazy to think this movie is number 17 on top movies of all time, nominated for multiple Oscars, and she could have just been cut out. You wonder how many of these movies had storylines like hers just removed.

There's a lot of yelling at Karen. She flushes his drugs and he's just yelling and she's like, the cops were here. Of course I flushed the drugs. She could have done better. Honestly, you know what would have been great? If she had started hooking up with Jimmy Conway, with Robert De Niro. Yes. That would have been a movie. Let's redo it. Cast Lorraine Bracco and Ray Liotta and Robert De Niro all at their current ages. Have De Niro and Lorraine Bracco make out. Cinema.

Paul Sorvino plays Paulie. He's kind of the quiet one, the big mob guy you never quite know what he's thinking. In IMDB trivia it says when Paulie confronts Henry after Henry's release from prison, Paul Sorvino improvised the slap to Ray Liotta's face, hence Liotta's reaction. Imagine a job where you can just slap someone and be like, it's fine, I was in character.

A couple really great supporting women in this movie — Illeana Douglas of To Die For, love her. Debi Mazar of the show Younger. Two important Italian women and I was so excited when both popped up. And Martin Scorsese's mother Catherine plays Tommy's mother in the infamous dinner scene. Scorsese's father Charles played Vinny the prisoner who put too many onions in the tomato sauce. I love nepotism when it helps old people. That's the kind of nepotism I can get behind. Cast your moms in stuff. Good. But only if they're over 70; otherwise I don't care.

Joe Pesci won the Oscar. Sixth shortest acceptance speech in Academy history: It's my privilege, thank you. He later admitted he didn't say very much because he genuinely felt he didn't have a chance of winning. The record is two words — Patty Duke in 1963 said thank you. Somebody needs to get up there and just go thanks and walk away. Imagine the power that would have. I will now be getting into acting so that I can win an Oscar and give the shortest acceptance speech. I'll keep you all abreast of how that goes.

I, Tonya

Competitive ice skater Tonya Harding rises amongst the ranks at the U.S. Figure Skating Championships, but her future in the activity is thrown into doubt when her ex-husband intervenes.

This movie came out in 2017, has a 90% on Rotten Tomatoes. It won a Supporting Actress Oscar for Allison Janney as Tonya Harding's mother. It was also nominated for Best Actress for Margot Robbie and Best Film Editing.

Clearly I've been on a Margot Robbie kick lately with Bombshell and Birds of Prey already covered this year. I don't think I quite realized what an incredible filmography she has. I saw I, Tonya at a screening, was so blown away — just frantically telling everyone they needed to see it ASAP. I was gratified to see it get awards recognition. I felt like finally the Oscars knew what was up.

The prep Margot Robbie put into this movie really paid off. She learned to ice skate, she met with Tonya Harding, and I felt like she didn't pull her punches in presenting an authentic portrayal, but she also did engender sympathy for a woman who faced hardship on an international level.

Let's face it, there's a harsh reality to what happened to Tonya Harding. I want to be cautious because I don't want to make light of what Nancy Kerrigan went through. She was assaulted. And as we watch this movie and feel such sadness at the thought of Tonya not being able to skate again professionally, it's important to note that was the reality Nancy Kerrigan faced. Nancy wound up recovering, was able to compete at the Olympics. But when all you do is skate and someone bashes your knee in, things aren't looking good. But this is Tonya's story, so let's talk about her angle.

There's a through line where she addresses the way the media portrayed her, how we reacted to Tonya Harding, the jokes, the punchline she was made. She says at one point, turning to camera: you're all my attackers too. You think about how we all knew who she was, we all knew the joke. There are a few national jokes — it's like that woman who cut her husband's penis off. There's a few where we just all know it.

The story as told in the film: her ex-husband Jeff Gillooly — they have a complicated, volatile relationship. Not even complicated: in the movie he beats her, he abuses her, he treats her like garbage and she thinks that's what love is. He gets involved with his weird friend Shawn Eckhardt, who wants to basically shake up Nancy Kerrigan because Nancy is Tonya's biggest threat. Tonya thinks they're going to send a letter, a scary threatening letter. She also gets Nancy's training schedule and tells Jeff — like, yeah, this is when she's here and this is when she's there. She's not on the up and up, but I doubt she was involved in knowing a physical attack would be carried out.

She says to camera: Nancy gets hit one time, everybody goes nuts. For me, it was an everyday occurrence. When we see her confiding in her mother that her husband hits her and her mom's like, well, you know, he needs to shut you up — it's disgusting the way she was treated. She was raised in such a hateful environment. The way the movie explores her is really nuanced and interesting. And it's also funny — very darkly comedic. At one point Jeff is telling his side of the story, saying she pulled a gun on him, and it shows Tonya chasing him around the house with a shotgun. And she turns to camera, pumps the shotgun, and says, this is BS. I never did this. And goes back to chasing him.

The only really bad thing about this movie is the CGI. And I say that only because it's so shocking amidst this incredible film. Do you remember those Elf Yourself dance videos? That's what it looks like. Margot trained extensively, but as producer Tom Ackerley stated, there have been only six women since Tonya Harding who have done a triple axel. Even if there was one doing it today, she'd be training for the Olympics and couldn't risk doing it for the film. So the jump was accomplished with visual effects and a lot of these skating scenes are Margot Robbie's head glued onto someone else's body. I would have rather had a stunt double whose hair was in their face, like old-school Buffy or Charmed.

Margot Robbie — incredible. Allison Janney as Tonya's mother is intense and awful and hateful, but is also the reason Tonya was able to train. Allison Janney herself had actually trained to become a figure skater as a child, but she walked into a sliding glass door at 17 and gravely injured her right leg. She shot for about eight days on this movie and won the Oscar. She has a little bird on her shoulder. At the Q&A, the writer talked about how they had to audition different birds to figure out which one to hire — they just wanted one that wasn't always yelling. They chose the most chill bird.

Sebastian Stan plays Jeff Gillooly. He is so charming at first, has his moments, but you see the anger in him — the way he hits Tonya when he doesn't get what he wants. Their relationship is so unhealthy, but they need each other because he takes care of all the business things so Tonya can focus on skating. Her mother raised her with no life skills, so Jeff basically takes on the role of her mother. Sebastian is currently best known as Bucky in the Avengers series, but I loved him on Once Upon a Time as the Mad Hatter, as Carter in Gossip Girl, as Nicole Kidman's criminal boyfriend in Destroyer. He has range. That is a talented actor who I think we will be seeing Oscar nominations for at some point.

Paul Walter Hauser plays Shawn, the dumb friend who is the one who basically makes all this happen. Jeff is the one who pays for it and thinks he's the boss, but it's Shawn just wanting to do stuff that makes it an issue. I hate this character so much. In the interview scenes, he's just talking with his eyes almost all the way closed, leaned back, like, I know counterterrorism. I'm an expert. And they're like, what? No you aren't. We looked. And he's like, yeah, yeah. The doubling down, the lying. I hate him so much. But Paul Walter Hauser himself, the actor — I've heard such lovely things about him.

Julianne Nicholson plays Diane, Tonya's trainer. She is there for Tonya in a way not many people are. She's frank with her and with her mother that the judges expect a certain level of presentation. She gets one of the best moments in the film — when she begins working with Tonya again and they're training for the Olympics. Some of the training is a little unorthodox. Tonya is running through the woods carrying a massive bag of dog food over her shoulders, and we hear in the narration: this is how Rocky trained when he had to fight the Russian, and it worked. Then the camera pans out past Diane, who turns directly to the lens and says, matter-of-factly: she actually did this.

Touches like this bring an extra interesting layer of humanity to the film — reminding us this is a real person who is alive today, who was such a part of our cultural conversation. And Bobby Cannavale appears as a tabloid producer, commenting on needing to fill the 24-hour news cycle. The timing of Tonya's story was such a big deal partially because the media made it a big deal because they needed to fill time.

Shared Themes

Our protagonists lose control over their lives and their selves. Their humanity takes a backseat to the pursuit of a certain lifestyle. Both Ray Liotta and Tonya are so laser-focused on one arena to the detriment of the rest of their lives.

Ray wants to be a wise guy. He sees value in getting respect and thinks joining the mobsters is how you get it. But to maintain his lifestyle, to keep his bosses happy while also getting respect from those he's shaking down, he gets embroiled in more and more criminal activities and runs himself ragged. He meets a nice woman, Lorraine Bracco, who he barely spends time with because he's always off running cons. He can never fully trust those around him — a wrong move can lead to being offed. He gets into the drugs he's selling and is always worried about the next big thing, where money is coming from, whether he's being followed, whether he'll get caught. For all his bravado, he lives life in fear 100% of the time. He is never secure. He never feels secure.

Tonya Harding wants to skate. That's all she wants to do. She's been pushed into it from a young age. She doesn't have other life skills. She says at one point when a judge tells her she can never skate professionally again after the Nancy Kerrigan incident: the people who actually ordered and paid for the attack got jail time. They got 18 months — I'll do that, your honor. I don't have an education. All I know is skating. I'm no one if I can't — I'm not this monster. I'm trying to do the best with what I know how to. It's like you're giving me a life sentence. You can't do that.

Not being able to skate is worse than prison. It is a life sentence. She has been skating since she was four years old. It's where she gets her confidence, her sense of self. In a world that has beaten her down in every other arena, no one can take from her the skill she has on the ice. No one can take from her that she can land a triple axel.

Ray and Tonya become involved with shady figures — the people who hang around their lines of business. The other mobsters, and then Jeff Gillooly, who was truly just lurking at the skate rink. Because they're only ever in this one space, they never have people in their lives they can really trust. Ray's best friend in Goodfellas is probably Robert De Niro, but by the end of the film De Niro is going to kill him. He can't trust anyone, not really. He's so by himself. Even in a house full of people, even in an organization he has helped build up.

Tonya has a mother who abused her and a father who abandoned her. She looks for love in the wrong places. Her mother hit her, so when Jeff Gillooly hits her, she takes it, accepting it as a piece of a normal loving relationship. She keeps trying to escape, but she goes back because Jeff knows her business and he knows her. When she's training long hours, where else is she going to meet someone? This is the world she is in.

Ray and Tonya get caught up in things that get fully out of control, their lives spiraling, with other people's actions creating more and more panic.

There's something so tragic about the circumstances of Ray and Tonya's birth not allowing them to ever fully be accepted into the professions they've dedicated their lives to.

Ray can never be a made man because he's part Irish, not full-blooded Italian. It's a point of contention for him and Robert De Niro, who's also half Irish, because being a made man is an incredible honor — it grants you a certain level of protection as well as greater respect. It's the acknowledgment: you're one of us, officially. But he can't change the fact that he's part Irish. Being truly part of this community is outside his reach, forever.

For Tonya, her supposed redneck upbringing has her in the judges' crosshairs from day one. She can't afford fur coats to wear on the ice. She doesn't have fancy schooling or parents of means. The upper crust of the figure skating world will never truly accept her. It doesn't matter what she does, what moves she can land — she's not considered one of them. They're like, yeah, Tonya Harding's out there, got a triple axel, which barely any other humans can do. Well, but look at her skirt. It's so absurd and she just can't change that perception. It's the perception the media cashed in on, exaggerated, dragged out, and turned into a punchline.

Power is something always just out of reach for Ray and Tonya. Something they crave if for no other reason than to finally be in charge of themselves, to not have to bow to the whims of others. They attempt to garner this power in small ways throughout their films, but Ray and Tonya are doomed from the start. The hand life has dealt them never allowed them to truly empower themselves. Their fate is left to others. At their lowest, they are powerless. Not in charge of what is happening or what will happen.

Ray spends a large chunk of Goodfellas serving others, doing as people say, trying to be a team player. As a kid, when he first dabs with the mob, he gets a warm reaction from Robert De Niro because when he's caught in a crime, he doesn't rat out his friends. That loyalty sticks with him. But when he's sent to jail, he develops his own drug connections and grows increasingly frustrated by Lorraine Bracco wanting to loop in Paulie. Paulie tells Ray straight up not to do the drug nonsense. But Ray finally has his own business going and doesn't want to turn down easy money. The problem is he's already too entrenched. They hang out at each other's houses. Their wives are friends, mistresses are friends. There's no escape. His illusion of power comes crashing down when the drug business makes him a paranoid wreck and the guys he's been with for decades stop trusting him.

Tonya is constantly slighted by the figure skating judges because they don't like her presentation. Doesn't matter if she's athletically the most gifted — she loses points for looks, for homemade outfits, for skating to heavy metal songs. It wears her down until finally she confronts the judges. She asks them: how am I supposed to get a fair shot if you're not actually judging me based on my skill?

It's an important moment for Tonya. The people around her don't appreciate her brashness, her questioning of this governing body. But it's one of the bravest things she does, because she says out loud: I am worth something. I know I have these skills. And this treatment is insane. And with the way Tonya has been treated her whole life, it's powerful to see her acknowledge her skills.

She eventually does have to bow to at least some whims of the figure skating ruling bodies. But it was a critical part of her own development and independence, leading to her finally extricating herself from Jeff Gillooly. The problem is it still isn't enough. You can't change how people see you to a certain extent. She stood up for herself, but she still is a joke to them. She still is glossed over by them. She doesn't get any satisfaction from yelling at them.

I do love that Tonya Harding, the real Tonya Harding, has said — when she first saw the film she particularly liked a certain line. She told Margot Robbie she wished she had actually said that. You don't get that in real life. So while it's wish fulfillment to watch her do it, you know it's not going to change anything. She's still powerless to these people and their whims.

What I, Tonya Did Better

Loyalty is something we all interpret a little differently, despite it being a concept you'd think would be pretty objective. For all Ray Liotta's talk of loyalty in Goodfellas, of having a crew — at the end of the day, they will whack you. At the end of the day, it's you or them. Whereas in I, Tonya, the dedication of Diane, Tonya's coach, is a through line that really touched me, as well as Tonya's loyalty to herself.

Loyalty is constantly rewarded for Ray in Goodfellas — he's praised when he doesn't rat people out, given more trust. And yet the same loyalty doesn't seem afforded to him. It seems crazy to take part in this system, talk up the loyalty, be excited about being a mobster, all with the knowledge you can never actually be a made man. It doesn't surprise Ray when at the end Robert De Niro definitely wants to kill him, even before he rats everyone out to the government. Ray cheats on his wife, not affording her the same loyalty he himself wants. It's all so false and hollow.

When we think of Goodfellas, we think loyalty. We think of these guys laughing in a darkened restaurant, having each other's backs, ready to bury a body for one another. But they also would totally bury each other. And that is rude. And that is not good friendship.

In I, Tonya, we see the ways people have let Tonya down. Everyone is looking out for themselves. The only constant in Tonya's life is skating, her love for it, even when it leads to her more difficult moments. Coach Diane coming back to find her at her waitressing job, bringing her out of retirement and giving her purpose again — it's so kind, so beautiful, so important. Diane wasn't taking on new clients when Allison Janney first busted into her ice rink, but she saw the passion a young Tonya had and has worked to help her channel that into skill for decades. Even knowing the reception Tonya gets, knowing how difficult it will be — Diane is there for her and wants her to do her best. That is loyalty.

And there's the loyalty Tonya has to herself when she involves herself in skating. She always gives it her full commitment. She gives her body her full commitment. She practices, she prepares. She never ever phones it in because this is what she's passionate about. And her passion is something Ray never has in Goodfellas.

Ray loves the life he's joined, the idea of it, but he never puts himself first. It's always trying to be bigger and better, but in the way that these other men want him to be. He never has a dream for himself. Tonya truly just wants to excel at this thing she loves. She wants to physically best those around her and find new heights of what she can achieve. That's compelling to watch.

Ray is not a full-fledged person in Goodfellas. He loses all aspects of himself conforming to the Goodfellas model. He's always trying to confirm that he's one of them. Whereas Tonya, despite the blows she takes, is herself to a fault. It's what makes her such a tragic figure and also why I don't have much connection to Ray Liotta. In Goodfellas, Ray is always trying to please other people. We see him as a kid wanting to be a gangster. We see him taking orders, constantly panicking, worried over how others will see him. He revels in their successes, but it's always a group affair, everyone together, no individuality.

One of the IMDB trivia facts says the film, told from Henry Hill's perspective, portrays him as a major player in the world of organized crime. Real-life gangsters of that era have said Hill was a minor figure and more of a hanger-on. So they already are taking liberties with Henry Hill — the story's about him, so of course he's going to do the most cool stuff. But he's still, even with the liberties, not cool. He has no sense of self. So why am I watching him? Show me anyone else in this movie, follow their story, because this guy has nothing.

In I, Tonya, Tonya Harding is so true to herself even as the world around her works to break her down. She is very clear about what she will or won't do in the sport. She wants to be authentic — not for some reason of looks, but because this is what she loves and what she knows, and she knows she's good. So to watch her find out what Jeff Gillooly has done, when she realizes what has happened to Nancy Kerrigan and her part in it — it's affecting. It's sad, because she could have won the right way. She had beat Nancy. She had come in first and Nancy second. She could have beat her. Jeff and Shawn took that chance from her.

When she breaks down in the courtroom over having skating taken from her, it's devastating. When we see Ray in the courtroom in Goodfellas, it's to rat out all his former friends and get himself a lighter sentence. Even his mantra of loyalty isn't carried out in that element of the film either.

There's something about Tonya. This movie definitely romanticizes the story a little bit — it shows us a woman you want to root for, and that's what this movie has been crafted to do. But think about the real-life woman who, when she performed the triple axel at the 1991 Nationals, choreographed her routine to Danny Elfman's theme for the 1989 Batman. She knew what she liked and she did it. And I love that.

I also think I, Tonya took the element of narration and upped the ante by having Tonya speak directly to the viewer while looking at us. Listening to Ray explain the world of Goodfellas is the backbone of the film. But when Tonya turned to the camera, gun in hand, pumping the shotgun and saying I never did this before chasing Jeff Gillooly — and when she said, turning about the news surrounding the attack on Nancy Kerrigan: it was like being abused all over again, only this time it was by you. All of you. You're all my attackers too — she turns and looks directly down the barrel of the camera. It struck me. It elevated the film. It helped me think more critically about the way we gather information, what the media feeds us, what we learn.

I hope you will give I, Tonya a chance. They don't need my help that much, but I do really adore it. It is currently streaming on Hulu.

Hit me up at @tastelesspod on social media. We can talk Margot Robbie, we can talk Ray Liotta's eyeliner, or we can talk about the fact that somebody needs to win an Oscar and just say "thanks" and walk away.

Out of Character: Face/Off vs Deadly Sibling Rivalry

Two movies about taking on someone else's identity in pursuit of revenge — it's Face/Off vs Deadly Sibling Rivalry.

Read Charisma Carpenter's THR piece, How To Be an Ally of Victims of Abuse

Read The Episode

Every episode of Tasteless, I take a critically acclaimed film and compare it to one that shares the same themes but didn't get the attention it deserves — and explain why that second movie is my pick. This week: two movies about taking on someone else's identity in pursuit of revenge. It's Face/Off versus Deadly Sibling Rivalry.

Face/Off

To foil a terrorist plot, an FBI agent assumes the identity of the criminal who murdered his son via facial transplant surgery, but the crook wakes up prematurely and vows revenge.

This movie came out in 1997, has a shocking 92% on Rotten Tomatoes with just under 100 reviews, and is just one of those action movies that people are talking about all the time. I watched it for the first time. Was shocked by everything that happened. It was nominated for an Oscar for Best Sound Effects Editing — it lost to Titanic.

The most insane part of this movie, though — where somebody's face gets swapped with somebody else's face — the most insane part is it opens on a carousel. John Travolta with his son, who he loves dearly. The son's probably about five years old. And Nicolas Cage is watching them because he's going to shoot John Travolta. And I guess to show his affection for his son, John Travolta takes his big old beefy hand and just runs it down the front of his son's face. You know, like in a movie when someone's dead and the other person runs their hand over their face to close their eyelids? That's what this looked like. It's so weird.

And then when he's trying to convince his wife that he's him later — when he's in Nick Cage's body — he touches her face, rubs his hand down her face, and she's like, it is my weird husband who rudely rubs his hand down my face. This must be him in someone else's body.

It's not a body swap, by the way. They're very specific about that. They're like, it's your body. We've shaved you and done plastic surgery and taken in your love handles. Somebody rudely says that to John Travolta — we've cut out your love handles so your body looks like Nick Cage's body. We have cut your hair and the only thing different is your face.

John Travolta is Sean Archer, an FBI agent who's been hunting this terrorist maniac Nick Cage. His son was killed by Nick Cage — by mistake. Nick Cage was trying to shoot John Travolta and the bullet went through his body into the body of his son. Not the best planning. This movie reminded me of how attracted I was to John Travolta in Look Who's Talking. Knock your — you thought I was going to say Grease? No. Look Who's Talking.

And then his enemy is Nick Cage playing Castor Troy, who is really, I feel like, not that good at crimes. He's really off the handle. When he's setting up the bomb at the beginning, every time he hits a button on this little portable computer, a little graphic of a flame pops up on the button after he hits it. Then we see him dance around in a priest's robes. I don't know why. He just dances around and grabs women's butts. He is truly a predator and disgusting.

Then he gets on a private jet with his brother, played by Alessandro Nivola — who you may know as the man in Disobedience, basically Italy's answer to Sam Rockwell. Nick Cage is hitting on this flight attendant and grabs her and makes her sit in his lap and goes, I can eat a peach for hours. But in kind of a weird valley accent, like, I can eat a peach for hours, man. And then he says that about 200 more times during the movie. That's the phrase John Travolta uses to get into his voice and his identity, because they give him this little voice box. He's just like, I can eat a peach for hours. I can eat a peach for hours. Peach, peach, I can eat a peach for hours. It's so upsetting and insane.

Poor Joan Allen in this movie has to kiss both John Travolta and Nick Cage. We also have CCH Pounder, who I love, John Carroll Lynch, who I love, Margaret Cho, who I love, and Gina Gershon, who we're going to get into in a second.

So they've swapped. They're like, John Travolta, Nick Cage is dead but we've got his brother and we need to find out where this bomb is. He won't talk to anyone besides his brother. So why don't you put on his brother's face and go talk to him? And John Travolta is like, great, sure. They give him Nick Cage's face. He goes to talk to Alessandro Nivola. Then while he's in there, Nick Cage wakes up from being dead, sees John Travolta's face floating in a jar, makes the surgeon give him John Travolta's face, kills everyone who knew that John Travolta was undercover — including CCH Pounder, which made me very sad — and goes on a rampage as John Travolta.

So we have Nick Cage with John Travolta's face, which is just the actor John Travolta pretending to be Castor Troy. And then we have John Travolta with Nick Cage's face, who is supposed to be undercover as Castor Troy. And immediately to one of the prisoners he's like, I busted you. You're in jail because of me. Oh wait, I mean — no. Sean Archer busted you. I'm Castor Troy. How are you an agent that you're this bad at going undercover?

Then he's looking around, like, the brother doesn't buy it's me. So I'm going to really pretend to be Castor Troy, and he does this insane person face that's like a meme online. And he just starts yelling, I'm Castor Troy! I'm Castor Troy! Great plan. If you want to pretend to be someone and you want other people to believe you, just scream that you are them as many times as you can.

Nick Cage, who is Sean Archer in Castor Troy's body, just keeps crying and touching his face. He finds out Tito is dead and he's like, Tito! He can't say the word "die." He keeps saying it and there's always — I watched with subtitles and that's the only reason I could tell he was saying a word and not just making a sound.

Later, Sean Archer in the Nick Cage body is trying to convince his wife, Joan Allen, that it's him. And he tells the most unhinged story: I took this girl on a date. I took her to surf and turf, but it turned out she was a vegetarian. And by the way, the story's about you. You broke your tooth on a rye seed, remember? You just ate a bunch of bread and you broke your tooth. What? This is what you picked to convince this woman that you're her husband?

As much as I hated all of Nick Cage's acting, I really enjoyed John Travolta getting to play Castor Troy, getting to be the bad guy. There's almost something a little feminine about it and something just very loosey-goosey that I enjoyed. He immediately was so creepy to Joan Allen. I feel like if my husband was suddenly a freak, I would at least be like, hey man, should you go to the doctor? Do you have a brain tumor?

Very funny trivia: one of his lines is I hate this ridiculous chin, which is Castor Troy in John Travolta's body talking about his chin. IMDB trivia says John Travolta asked the writers if they were making fun of him with the ridiculous chin line. They explained that Castor was such a narcissist that he would hate having anyone else's face. John Travolta is like, hey, is this joke about my chin? And they're like, no, no, no, it's the character. The character just hates everyone's chin. It's not you specifically.

Also in John Travolta trivia: before shooting emotional scenes, John Woo played soft, sad music to help the actors get into character. John Travolta said he didn't need it. He nailed the scene in one take, earning the nickname One Take John. Okay, that 100% did not happen and/or John Travolta submitted this piece of trivia himself.

They say "face off" about 18 times in this movie. Nick Cage is like, I want to take his face off. And his henchman is like, face off? Face off? You want to take his face off? I'm going to take his face off — for about 10 minutes. It's a real weird Who's on First thing. The studio wanted to take the slash out of the title. John Woo was like, no, I'm worried people will think it's a hockey movie if it doesn't have the slash.

Now, Gina Gershon. She is so cool in this movie. The best part is she's holding her son — probably five years old, turns out Castor is the father — and the FBI comes in to raid these bad guys. She kicks one of the bad guys in the crotch and turns to her kid and goes, I don't ever want to see you do that. IMDB trivia says Gina Gershon decided Sasha should kick a man in the groin. I thought that just encapsulated her whole personality. The whole killer mom. Yes!

She told John Woo she wanted to shave her head for the role and he said no. Then Nick Cassavetes, who played her brother, surprised John Woo by shaving his head for the role. John Woo said it was just the image he wanted. Double standard much?

A couple more bits of trivia because this movie is just a movie. The two main characters' blood types reflect their antagonistic nature. Sean Archer's blood type is O-negative, the universal donor, reflecting Archer's role as a police officer dedicated to serving the community. Castor Troy's is AB-positive, the universal recipient — someone who takes from society without giving anything back. I really hope there's never any IMDB trivia about my blood type and what it says about me.

And important trivia: a lot of people caught the flu while filming the prison scenes because of the dirty conditions there.

The grossest part of this movie is that at the end — spoiler alert — Gina Gershon dies, so John Travolta, now Sean Archer again, brings home Gina Gershon's son and is like, we're going to raise him now. He's the same age as our child that died. His daughter goes up to the little boy and just runs her hand right down his face. What is wrong with this family? Family's a bunch of sickos.

Deadly Sibling Rivalry

In trouble with the law, a woman assumes the identity of her twin sister, who is in a coma after a car accident. Her niece isn't so easily fooled, but proving it could have deadly consequences.

This movie came out in 2011. It does not have a score on Rotten Tomatoes, but it lacks me, and I'll change that.

I decided to crack into this comparison because of Charisma Carpenter's recent headlines. Now, Charisma is an incredible actress and human. I know and love her from Buffy, which led me to following her career in all arenas. She hosted a show called Surviving Evil, a documentary series about people fighting for their lives, and she shared her own story about being attacked. She's created her own virtual convention experience with MyCon.live. And recently she has been in the news because she has come out about her experiences with Joss Whedon, in support of Ray Fisher.

Ray Fisher played Cyborg in Justice League and came out against Joss and his abusive behavior. An official legal inquiry was opened. Charisma provided testimony to support Ray Fisher's claims and shared on social media what she had gone through — how she was psychologically abused during her tenure on Joss's shows. Her speaking out caused many more people from Joss Whedon's past works to come out to support her or share their own stories.

It's so hard to be the first one to do something, but it's so important. One person can make such a massive difference. Following that, Charisma wrote a piece for The Hollywood Reporter titled "How to Be an Ally of Victims of Abuse." In a time where an unprecedented number of people are coming forward sharing their stories, when people have access through social media to the people in their lives who care about them, to people who don't know them, to people who look up to them, and to people that are hateful little trolls — we don't always know how to react. Charisma's bravery is very appreciated and further cements my deep love of her, so I wanted to revisit one of my favorite movies of hers.

This movie — Deadly Sibling Rivalry — not only stars Charisma Carpenter, it stars two Charisma Carpenters. She is twins Janna and Callie. Not only is she a phenomenal actress, but she's so funny. And I love seeing doubles of my favorite actors. What a dream come true to have two Charismas on the screen.

These twins have a contentious history. As teens, they went rock climbing and their father falls to his death in front of them. Now, I will say this: maybe don't do an activity where you could die in front of your children. But it messes them up.

Fast forward to the present. Janna is a mom. She's careful, she's nice, she cares about her daughter more than anything. Instead of rock climbing and adventuring, she owns majority stake in a travel magazine where she writes about the adventures she wishes she could go on. Callie, her twin, is the so-called bad twin. She flits from place to place, no roots, is involved in some shady dealings, some prescription drug thievery, and whenever she comes to town, you know you're in for some trouble.

Janna's daughter is played by Krista Allen — who I know you know as young Jenna Rink in 13 Going on 30. She's in college now and has come back home to visit with her mom and is really excited that her Aunt Callie is visiting because Aunt Callie is fun and laid back, whereas her mother Janna is controlling. Like, yeah, that's what moms are for. Obviously your aunt is more fun. That's how it works.

This movie made the social media rounds again a few months ago because there's a scene — Callie's friend is played by Kyle Richards. Actress, Real Housewife of Beverly Hills, was an actress before that. She's Callie's shady friend involved in the drug dealings. Callie kills her, puts her in a freezer, and sits on top. It's an amazing, classic death scene — so ridiculous in the best way. In a movie where there are twins and there's an evil twin, obviously someone dies in a freezer. Every time that scene floats around Twitter because it has Kyle Richards, I have to go immediately watch Deadly Sibling Rivalry.

Janna and Callie, the twins, are in the car together and wind up in a car accident. Janna flags down help. Callie is in a coma. While Janna remains mostly unscathed, we see her rattled, shaken up, but relieved to be back with her daughter. Her daughter Fiona checks in on Callie, talks to her to help get her out of the coma because she heard that's good for coma patients. And Janna is just so happy to be alive that she says life is too short and starts being more "fun" with Fiona. But fun in the same way that Nick Cage in John Travolta's body is fun in Face/Off — where I'd be like, no, I don't want this much freedom.

She starts being more fun with her daughter, lets her drink wine, and her daughter's like, mom, you're cool now. And then her mom goes into the bathroom, closes the door, and — spoiler alert, as is revealed — it was Callie all along!

Callie has taken Janna's place and it is actually Janna who is in the coma. Callie is wearing Janna's scarf, but when she starts changing, we see the red lingerie that Callie had put on at the beginning of the film. It's such a good villain reveal. I truly gasped. She goes into the bathroom and you're like — her mom is going in to get changed or whatever. And she goes, I'm going to have to retrain that girl, and undoes her shirt. Boom! Callie's bra. Whoa.

Fiona starts to suspect something is wrong. She suspects her mother is actually the one in the coma. But no one believes her. This is just one of those movies where it's so fun from beginning to end. You're just like, oh my God, what? Oh my God, what?

There's a mother-daughter motorcycle ride. Very cool. One Charisma Carpenter shoots a shotgun at the other Charisma Carpenter. If that's not the description of your perfect movie, then we have nothing in common. I'm sorry. That's my perfect film.

Shared Themes

Our characters face a crisis when taking over someone else's identity, because a life that has been built on how they are perceived by others is suddenly shattered.

John Travolta in the body of Nick Cage — so Sean Archer, the nice FBI man, now wearing Nick Cage's crazy face and receding hairline — at first doesn't want to lean into Nick's identity, into Castor Troy. He aggressively does a bad job at being undercover, whether subconsciously or just because he's a dummy. He's like, hey, I arrested you — I mean, someone else did, I'm a bad guy. Up until he realizes Castor Troy is out in the world wearing his face, being him, taking over his life, and that everyone who knew he was undercover is now dead. No one's going to believe he isn't who he looks like.

He seems a lot less concerned with Castor Troy being out in the world, sleeping with his wife, being bad, having a bomb — and a lot more concerned with: no one is going to know who I am. The fact that Castor Troy has killed everyone who could vouch for Sean Archer's true identity really sends Archer into a tailspin.

And then we see how quickly people accept Castor Troy in Sean Archer's body — Castor Troy in the John Travolta body, slapping butts, having a nice time. Margaret Cho, one of his employees, is like, finally, you're fun and you'll drink with us. It's so weird to see how much they love him not being himself.

Castor Troy in the body of John Travolta never really attempts to take on John's identity. He tamps down his own craziness the teeniest bit so as not to fully give up the game, but he doesn't do a great job. He continually comments on missing his old face, his old body, his weird new John Travolta chin. He risks his freedom to get the Nick Cage face back. He needs his face back. He's obsessed with it. He really is loud and proud about loving himself. It's incredibly important to him that people see him as Nick Cage and not as Sean Archer.

Sean Archer in Nick Cage's body is so crushed to be thought of as evil. He just cries for most of the movie. He so quickly has to be reminded who he is — he gets Nick Cage's face put on him and his bosses are like, hey, hey, it's okay, you're Sean Archer wearing Nick Cage's face. It's fine, cool it.

In Deadly Sibling Rivalry, Callie is thrilled by the reception she gets as Janna. People trust her. They let her in. She's not thought of as a flake, as a criminal. She's always been jealous of Janna, envious of the life she lives, and now she gets to fully immerse herself in that life. She talks about herself in this third-person way, constantly complaining to other people about Callie, and she waits for other people to agree, expecting them to. It throws her off when Fiona doesn't — when Fiona sees the good in Callie.

She's frustrated by Fiona's constant support of Callie. Fiona's love for someone who flits in and out of her life. Callie doesn't understand how Fiona could keep loving her. It's clear that if Callie had had that sort of support throughout her life, things could have turned out differently. But she shakes that off, angry, and goes back to trashing the supposed Callie in the coma.

At this point, everyone thinks Callie is the one in the coma. The police want to interrogate her. She's in a coma. She can't talk. But then she wakes up. Janna wakes up and is told that she's Callie. And because she has amnesia, she goes along with it. She fully loses her identity. She doesn't quite jive with being Callie — who they say Callie is, someone who has committed crimes — but she doesn't know what else to believe. It's easier to accept what doctors tell her, what police tell her.

Fiona has to convince her who she is, of the incredible mother she is, to bring her back to herself. It's her love for her family, for her daughter, for her father, that brings back her memories and allows her to gather the strength to protect herself and her daughter from Callie's rage.

Face/Off and Deadly Sibling Rivalry are about identity and about how inhabiting the life of someone else causes our characters to further discover who they really are deep down — because there's this realization that at the end of the day, we can't escape ourselves, for better or for worse.

John Travolta, Sean Archer in the Nick Cage body, truly wigs out. He is distraught with how people look at him, what they expect him to be. He is so weirdly pumped when he finds out Castor is the father of Gina Gershon's son, because he gets to hug this little boy and play a fatherly role. Now, he does hug the little boy while screaming his dead son's name, and Gina Gershon is like, okay, please stop, you're scaring him. But Sean Archer's identity as a father is so important to him. He needs that affection. Getting to connect as a father again is what drives him — it's what brings him back to himself and laser-focuses what he needs to do to get his life back.

Nick Cage, Castor Troy in John Travolta's body, becomes so weird because he feels this need to prove himself. It's like he's constantly showing off. He wants all these FBI people to be kissing his butt so he can be like, ha ha, I got them. And it's like, well yeah, you work with them. And he's like, no, but I'm secretly a bad guy. Ha ha. He just needs that. He needs this fear of himself.

In Deadly Sibling Rivalry, we have two women who don't want to admit that there are things about themselves they would like to change. So they reject those things in others wholeheartedly. Janna and Callie are like oil and water, hating everything about the other person because they see what they themselves lack.

Janna clearly misses adventuring, is wistful over the people she features in her magazine who are living the lives she writes about. Everyone sees Janna as this uptight person without understanding how the death of her father led her to wanting to stay safe, to be cautious. When she believes that she is Callie, she doesn't feel quite right hearing the things Callie is accused of doing. She wonders how she could have gotten here. It's her love for her daughter that brings her back from the amnesia.

Everyone thinks of Janna as boring, as a stick in the mud, and there's a certain freedom to inhabiting the skin of carefree Callie. She's willing to bust out with her daughter because a little bit of pressure is lifted, a little bit of expectation. She warns her daughter though, when they're making their escape from the hospital, about being careful, about potentially getting in trouble. And her daughter Fiona laughs and is like, see, you are my mom. Callie doesn't care about getting in trouble. Janna, in this weird way, finds the best of both worlds in this post-amnesia state.

Callie is the more conflicted of the duo. She lives life carefree, globetrotting, but is resentful of the peace and harmony that Janna has with her daughter. Callie makes reckless decisions that lead to her getting in trouble with the law, but she sees a way out in the form of taking over Janna's life. As Janna, she realizes even further what she's been missing — the love of Janna's daughter, just the respect she gets, having a home to call her own. Instead of coming to terms with the things she doesn't have, she tries to destroy them.

The rivalries we witness are deeply personal because the people our characters love have gotten caught in the crossfire. Revenge is a powerful motivator, one that gives our characters some strange sense of control. In pursuit of revenge, they finally feel like they're working towards something.

Castor Troy has taken everything from Sean Archer — and by everything I mean his weird son whose face he rubs. He kills that son and Sean never recovers. So Sean is willing to have his face ripped off and replaced with another face to see through ending the criminal streak of Castor Troy. He gives up his wife and his daughter so quickly — yeah, of course I'll abandon them and wear a new face, great. He couldn't do anything to save his son Mike, so he thinks this is how he makes amends. But then when he's actually faced with the thought of losing who he is, that's when he's motivated. That's when he's like, okay, no, I have to get back to my life. A life he had been working to escape, a life he had been absent from. Joan Allen was like, oh my God, please just come home, you loser. But revenge keeps him going. It's only when he overcomes that revenge and is out to reunite with his family that he's able to save himself.

In Deadly Sibling Rivalry, Callie kills her own father when she's trying to kill her sister. She blames this on her sister. She never wanted her father to die, but it happened because of her jealousy. And so now she has to make that horrible mistake worth it. She has to get rid of the person she sees as the architect of her misery: Janna. She's given the opportunity to take Janna's life for herself and she does. When she realizes that doesn't change who she is at her core — that Kyle Richards can still sniff her out and say, I knew you were a rat, I see your hand on your hip like the uppity jerk you are — Callie can't escape herself. This revenge drives her insane. Because she can't put it aside, can't come to terms with Janna, she basically kills herself in this quest.'

What Deadly Sibling Rivalry Does Better

Despite being played by two different actors, the two main characters of Face/Off are not particularly distinct, whereas Charisma Carpenter creates two very different people in Deadly Sibling Rivalry.

According to IMDB trivia, in Face/Off, Nicolas Cage and John Travolta spent two weeks together before filming to learn how to play each other. They decided on specific gestures and vocal cadences for each character that could be mimicked. To that I say: you did a bad job. This is straight up just two Nick Cages almost immediately. Two Castor Troys. Castor in Sean's body doesn't try to blend in at all — he acts as though he's making fun of it the entire time. So John Travolta is basically doing a Nick Cage and Nick Cage is doing a Nick Cage.

Nick Cage just screams. He's supposed to be the FBI agent, the calm one. He should be the more walled-off Sean Archer. Instead he just goes bananas. Yes, okay, it's fun to see everyone acting wacky. But it's frustrating that Sean does not retain who he is when he's in this new body, except for his weird thing with touching little boys' faces. Oh my God — I can't get over the fact that he adopts Castor Troy's son and his daughter immediately is like, let me just put my entire hand on this boy's face. I would rather live with Nick Cage than with these freaks.

Nick Cage as Sean Archer acting like Nick Cage, John Travolta as Castor Troy acting like Nick Cage. Indistinct. Just immediately both full-blown crazy in a way that makes it hard to determine the real effects of the face swap.

In Deadly Sibling Rivalry, Charisma's two sisters are more distinct — and they're played by the same person. There is an art to this. One Charisma Carpenter has mastered, one people like Tatiana Maslany have mastered.

Even when we don't know yet that Charisma is playing Callie pretending to be Janna, there are subtleties to her performance that let you know something is off — things you can really pick up on on a second watch. They are two fully distinct women, women who wonder about the effects of nature versus nurture, women who have carved out separate lives despite having all the same advantages and opportunities. It's fascinating to wonder what it is that shapes us.

Callie ponders that something went awry in her nurturing since she and Janna are identical, and she constantly rips on Janna out of misplaced jealousy. I have empathy for both women. Yes, one of them murders Kyle Richards in a freezer, tried to murder her sibling, accidentally murdered her dad. But man, do I feel for that sibling rivalry.

And yes, I'm a twin. Sharing a birthday with someone, it's tough. You share all milestones. You go to the same schools, take the same tests, go to college at the same time. Everything is both of you and you want to differentiate. It's so hard not to nickel-and-dime your parents in terms of the time they spend with your sibling. Everything given to one sibling, you want as well. I feel for this woman who thinks she's gotten the short end of the stick, whose envy of the relationship between her sister and her dad leads to the biggest tragedy in her life.

Callie is clearly unwell and projects her hatred and anger onto Janna, who really just wants to do what's best for her daughter. I understand both of these women. That may come down to the fact that Face/Off feels very black and white, while Deadly Sibling Rivalry explores many facets of humanity.

The director of Face/Off, John Woo, is all about good versus evil in his works — it's a major theme. Nick Cage is given almost no redeemable characteristics. He's just evil. We don't even have the emotional payoff of Castor Troy finding out he has a son — we get Sean Archer in Nick Cage's body finding out about the relationship. Castor is just a bad guy through and through. Sean Archer is our supposed good guy. He just gets pass after pass. He's a terrible husband and father. He's just disengaged and grumpy. Somebody should have sent him home to take a nap. There are no shades of gray to these two characters.

What's so interesting about Deadly Sibling Rivalry is that I can see myself in both of these women. With Callie, even at her darkest, I understand it. I can feel for what she's been through, that she goes through life thinking she's less than. And Janna has sympathy for Callie, which is so important. Janna is upset with how things end. Fiona is surprised when Janna mourns her sister. But Janna points out — at the end of the day, no matter what, that's her family.

There's a humanity, a code, a backbone, a personality to these women that shines through and makes me want to support them and watch them and follow their story. Face/Off has some great action sequences, but are we invested in either of these men? Sean Archer is supposed to be our hero, but he spends a lot of the time crying and saying peach. We don't know them — not the way I feel I know Callie and Janna so clearly.

I hope you will give Deadly Sibling Rivalry a watch. It is on Tubi. It's very fun. Or rent it wherever you rent movies. Make sure you read Charisma Carpenter's Hollywood Reporter column — it is really important, really helpful, critical required reading for people with the access we have to people whose lives we don't know.

Hit me up at @tastelesspod on social media. We can talk about how incredible it is to watch two Charisma Carpenters in the same scene. We can talk about the fact that I'm a twin and I have yet to murder my father trying to murder my sibling, so I have that going for me.

Nicole Bilderback | Strong Female Leads

Nicole Bilderback (Bring It On, Mercenaries, Brooklyn Nine-Nine) is part of the very fabric of good teen movie making and has continuously graced our screens with laughter and action. We talked lip-synching to the earworm that is Mickey, the similarities between dancing and fighting, and the importance of being informed about the world around you.

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Watch Nikki and Clare Kramer recreate iconic scenes from Bring It On | Read MTV's Bring It On Oral History | Watch the promo for Cruel Summer

Addicted to Love: Judy vs Gia

Two biopics about troubled women with star power and polarizing personalities — it’s Judy vs Gia.

Read The Episode

Every episode of Tasteless, I take a critically acclaimed film and compare it to one that shares the same themes but didn't get the attention it deserves — and explain why that second movie is my pick. This week: two biopics about troubled women with star power and polarizing personalities. It's Judy versus Gia.

Judy

Legendary performer Judy Garland arrives in London in the winter of 1968 to perform a series of sold-out concerts.

This movie came out in 2019 and has an 81% on Rotten Tomatoes. It won an Oscar — Renée Zellweger won for Best Actress, which is why I thought of doing this movie. I was talking about Bombshell last week — Renée Zellweger beat Charlize Theron for Best Actress, but Bombshell won Best Makeup. You win some, you lose some.

I think Renée Zellweger's performance deserves recognition and accolades if for nothing else for the fact that she captured Judy's voice, her singing voice, which is absolutely insane. IMDB trivia tells us that Renée spent a year training with the vocal coach Eric Vetro before shooting began, then rehearsed with musical director Matt Dunkley for four months to master her vocals.

Number one, it's crazy to think about how much time people spend so that they can pretend — so that they can be in a movie. And it makes me wonder: does someone have to have that in them a little bit? We know Renée can sing. She was nominated for an Oscar for Chicago. But if you have the best trainers in the world, can you be trained to do anything? Like if I had four months where I could just do whatever the vocal coach told me, could I get Judy Garland's voice? Or did they pick Renée because they already knew she could tap into it somehow? It's so fascinating to me.

Renée is super talented, comedically delightful, and she really does capture Judy here. I watched a bunch of Judy Garland interviews because one thing I was struck by that didn't quite work for me in the movie, even if it was accurate, was that I was wondering if Judy was so — yuck yuck, hey mister — in real life. In the movie, at one point they say something like, oh, the biggest living legend, and she goes, Frank Sinatra's here? Like, obviously they're talking about her and she's making a joke. I was ready for her to get a cap with a propeller and just start spinning it while shooting both her eyebrows up and down.

There's this very performative, old-school, pratfall-almost type of comedy that Judy does throughout this film. I watched some interviews and you do get that sense a little bit — that she was always on, nothing was ever serious, she had to make a joke out of everything. So it's hard to tell where she's coming from.

As talented as I think Renée is, it's hard when a biopic is being made about someone and their family doesn't necessarily want that. Liza Minnelli, Judy Garland's daughter, did not approve of this movie. Prior to the film's release, Liza stated through her Facebook account that she had never met nor spoken to Renée Zellweger and made it clear she personally did not approve of the project nor sanction it in any way. That's tough. You don't want that to keep us from exploring the lives of people that were such a part of the fabric of culture, but it also does suck. Imagine a movie coming out about your mom at her worst moments and everyone's talking about it and giving it awards. Oh, it was incredible. I cried. Okay, but I lived that. It must be awful.

To make Renée into Judy, makeup designer Jeremy Woodhead had to prosthetically extend the tip of her nose. Dark gray contact lenses were used to approximate Garland's dark brown eyes and a cropped walnut brown wig was fashioned to resemble Garland's iconic hairdo. Walnut is not a sexy color name. Oh, what nice walnut hair you have.

I think the pieces we have chosen of Judy's life to focus on are odd. This film focuses on these last few months of her life in London, and it's such a strange thing to carve out and use to define someone. In this movie, and when she died, Judy was only 47 but she looks 100 years old. I called my mom — she adores this movie, loved Judy Garland — and I was like, why did Judy look 80 years old? And my mom pointed out that not only was she drinking and drugging hard, but people just looked older. If you watch Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, Bette Davis looks about 200 years old and was 54. It's so odd to realize she was only 47. That is trash.

Jessie Buckley plays Rosalyn, kind of Judy's only friend in the present-day storyline. She's not even really Judy's friend — she's basically there to keep an eye on her and make sure she gets to the stage each night. Burt is my favorite character. He plays piano for her, played by Royce Pierreson, who was also a hunk in The Witcher. I really liked him. He just has to roll with the punches when she changes up the set list. When Judy first gets to London, she shows up to rehearsal and Burt is just so happy — he's going to get to play piano for Judy Garland. And Judy's like, ugh, I want to go rest, I'm tired. And they're like, well, the show is tomorrow. And she's like, okay, bye, I'm going to go lay down.

As we explore the current-day storyline, we see some fans of hers. She's wondering, are there people waiting at the stage door for me after my shows? Rosalyn's kind of like, I mean, not really, but do you want to go get a drink? And Judy says no. She goes to the stage door and there's this couple — these two gay guys that adore her. They've bought tickets to see her every night. They get her autograph. And then she goes, hey, do you guys want to get some dinner? Everywhere is closed, so they go back to these guys' house and they make really bad eggs.

By the way, that's my dream. Imagine running into your favorite celebrity and they're like, can I come over?

This scene of her cooking eggs is the most human you see her in the movie. Even though she is still putting on a show for these guys, it was the most connected to her, because you see her seeing someone else. She's talking to one of the men and he's kind of crying because it's been hard for them, and she looks around and notices the pictures of herself on the wall and she sees what her music has meant to these men. She gets a different perspective than the one of the jaded performer. It's in those moments that I really do appreciate what Renée Zellweger can do.

But I have a hard time with the more fantastical elements because it felt like two separate movies. When we go into the childhood, everybody is so mean to her all the time. Everything is the worst. The movie opens with this really great recreation of The Wizard of Oz set. Some bigwig — I think it's Louis B. Mayer — is basically saying, look Judy, other girls are pretty, but you've got a voice. But we will replace you if we have to.

I had never thought about what Judy went through. How many pills she was given to keep her — basically they said, take these diet pills instead of eating, take these pills to stay awake so we can shoot longer hours, take these pills to do this. She didn't have a childhood. That's what went into making The Wizard of Oz — a miserable, unhappy, abused, stunted girl. Her life was ruined. Not just by this movie, but by the same machine that made this movie, that made all of her movies.

So to rewatch The Wizard of Oz feels strange. As we assess what went into creating the art that we watch — this movie that means so much to so many, that's a part of people's childhood, was this girl's waking nightmare. I would have loved to explore that more. I felt like this movie chose very weird elements to focus on and had these little hints, glimpses, almost connections to things I'm really intrigued by and then would move away and go back to one of Judy's husbands.

Finn Wittrock plays Mickey Deans, her last husband. Finn Wittrock is gorgeous, but he does do a click-your-heels joke to Judy very quickly after meeting her and it's like — get out of here. How dare you say that to her. Leave her alone.

And we haven't even gotten into her children — Liza Minnelli, Lorna Luft, Joey Luft. Why does someone like this have children? She wants to do right by them, but she has such a focus on herself as she has been taught to have. She just can't be there for her kids. She has to make money. And then while making money, she does pills and she drinks. When she basically ends her run of shows in London, Rosalyn says to her very seriously, very earnestly, are you going to be all right? She says, yeah, I'll be fine. No, she's not. Why ask her that? You're not going to help her. You're just another person who made money off of her and now she's going to go along her way. It's very much like what's happening with Britney Spears — we're all so worried about Britney. Not enough to do anything, but somebody should go help her. What are you going to do to help her, Rosalyn?

It's on Amazon Prime and Hulu. It's interesting. I'm glad I watched it. It's not my cup of tea in terms of biopics, but to see Renée Zellweger capture that voice is really incredible.

Gia

The story of the life of Gia Carangi, a top fashion model from the late 1970s, from her meteoric rise to the forefront of the modeling industry, to her untimely death.

This came out in 1998. It has a 92% on Rotten Tomatoes — though it's not a totally fair comparison because it only has 13 critical reviews, while Judy has 333. This was an HBO made-for-TV movie. Angelina Jolie won the Golden Globe for portraying Gia and Faye Dunaway won Supporting Actress for her role as Wilhelmina Cooper, the modeling agency woman. She tied with Camryn Manheim for The Practice. I adore Camryn Manheim, by the way — she's in Romy and Michele, has the yearbook, has some great scenes with Janeane Garofalo.

All the awards should have been given to Angelina Jolie and to Elizabeth Mitchell, her co-star in this film. But we've got to start with Angelina.

Angelina Jolie has the it factor in the same way that Gia did, which adds an extra layer of intrigue to this movie. Gia was a real model who in her short life took the modeling industry by storm. Angelina got painted with such harsh brushstrokes, and as the years go on she just continues to use her influence and her access for good to help people. You have to appreciate that she walks the walk. And I think she is very, very talented.

Her portrayal of Gia is particularly interesting because — this isn't an official comparison, just something interesting — Renée, to become Judy, had to study and become her. Angelina Jolie is a good actress, a really good actress. But to find someone who has that same star quality that Gia herself had, something you can't put your finger on but you are just drawn to them — Angelina has had that forever. You watch her in a movie and you are drawn to her. She has this sense of humor that carries through her work. There's a cleverness and awareness in her roles that I enjoy, a quirked eyebrow. She draws you in.

Even when she's more naive, in Maleficent, her sense of humor shines through. She knows what she knows and she's this undeniable force. I watched By the Sea, the film she directed with her and Brad Pitt just sort of hating each other, and she is so watchable. She brings Gia's story into such vivid focus.

Gia, in one of the first scenes we see her in, meets this guy who likes her and she takes him to a tattoo parlor. They don't wind up getting the tattoos, but Gia is the kind of person you get a tattoo for. She's energy and excitement and fun. She envelopes people, brings people into her fold. So when she meets some people outdoors that ask her to come back to their place to take pictures of her, we see how that translates into the camera.

At her first big photo shoot, her makeup artist is Linda, played by Elizabeth Mitchell, who she connects with immediately when she opens Linda's can of Tab for her. Elizabeth Mitchell is perhaps best known for Lost. I know her from this movie and from a great arc on Once Upon a Time where she has an ice cream shop and she's a snow queen. She is another insanely charismatic person. To watch her and Angelina share screen time is a lot to handle because it's so good.

It would have been really easy for the other character playing opposite Angelina's Gia to become overpowered by the chaotic energy of that role. But Elizabeth provides the perfect push and pull. There's a strength to her. And through her, you can see how someone would fall so hard for Gia despite the major lows that come with all the highs.

This movie's handling of Gia's relationship with Linda was impressive. These two women loved each other. And as media in 2021 continues to struggle with portraying romances that aren't heterosexual, I really appreciated that Gia never made a big deal of the love between Gia and Linda. It was inevitable. Of course they're drawn to one another. Gia's mom is kind of like, why are you sending flowers to a girl? But this movie isn't about homophobia. It's not about struggling with a sexual identity. Gia is fully herself and she loves Linda. And the fact that the two are both women is never even an issue raised between the two of them.

Linda has a boyfriend but is enthralled by Gia and can't stay away. She's the most solid person in Gia's life, but she can't give everything in the way Gia wants. Gia is very needy. Despite her deep love for Linda, Gia can never quite commit.

This movie is told through both a narrative arc and various characters speaking to the camera as though they are doing an interview about Gia. The bits of the film that are interviews — which take place after Gia has died from AIDS-related complications from sharing needles — give us the most sympathetic but also real look at who Gia was. Linda knew her better than anyone. Knew her shortcomings and appreciated her for who she was while also acknowledging Gia needed more. Gia always needed more.

The film allows us to really gradually fall in love with Gia despite the more frustrating elements of her — despite her drug addiction, her inability to say no. You feel for her. There's a line delivery where Gia is meeting Wilhelmina Cooper for the first time at the modeling agency. When she gets there, there are just all these blonde, clean-cut women. So she says to her potential employer, if I had known you were looking for Marsha effing Brady, I would have stayed home. Which ties for me all-time Marsha Brady references with Cruel Intentions — I feel like I'm the Marsha effing Brady of the Upper East Side and sometimes I want to kill myself. So Sarah Michelle Gellar and Angelina Jolie — great work.

Faye Dunaway plays Wilhelmina Cooper. She gives Gia her first big break and they become really close, with her serving as a mother figure to Gia, who needs so much support. Her real mother is played by Mercedes Ruehl — a well-intentioned woman who doesn't understand the darkness Gia can go to when she feels untethered, who maybe is aware of it but doesn't want to acknowledge it. So when Wilhelmina dies, Gia is sent into a tailspin.

The movie is definitely a made-for-TV biopic, so it's overdramatic in a lot of ways. But there's still a heart here and a realism. There are some really funny parts. It sounds like an afterschool-special bummer of heroin use, but it isn't — there's humor because there was humor in Gia's life. That's how Gia dealt with things.

And yeah, there's a lot of naked Angelina Jolie. I feel like that's what this movie got known for — it was on the top naked scenes on Mr. Skin. If that's what you're coming to this movie for, you're going to be bummed. I mean, I guess you're going to have a great time. But the story here is really good and there's a lot of heart, and this is somebody I wouldn't have known about otherwise.

I was watching interviews with the real Gia and it's such a bummer. Bummer is not a serious enough word. It's sad to watch someone that clearly had so much passion but clearly was having such a hard time. In the interviews, she's talking a mile a minute. She has so much she wants to say that she can't get out. I think she had a hard time dealing with all the thoughts going around in her head.

I appreciated getting this look at her — who she wanted to be and how she contended with finding out she was one of the first women with AIDS the doctors were dealing with. It was new. She had to come to terms with dying young. It is currently on HBO Max. I really recommend it. It's one of Angelina's best roles.

Shared Themes

Biopics are not usually a genre I seek out because I find it's either someone I already know too much about — so then you know what's gonna happen — or it's somebody you don't know and you're like, okay, this may as well just be a movie. But I've realized over the last year that I've been unfair to them. I do appreciate seeing a more honest look at the lives of women who were always presented to us as either angels or demons. Women who we oohed and aahed over until their humanity became too much for us to bear. Until the sad reality of what led them here, led them to success, made us feel too guilty, too unclean.

In these movies, we explore the life of a woman with substance abuse problems, a woman who was chewed up and spit out by the entertainment industry. If you're going into your office job, no one is going to put up with your pill popping. You're going to lose the job. But for Judy and for Gia, their substances of choice are how they got through the day. And because other people are making so much money off of them, they look the other way instead of trying to help. It's not anyone else's responsibility to help them — they're both very young when they first become embroiled in these worlds — but we see this in the entertainment industry so often because these women become commodities.

The films Judy and Gia do a good job of exploring the women's addiction without sensationalizing it, without trivializing it. We see it as a fact of their lives, as something they both struggle with.

Judy was given all sorts of pills from day one to keep her thin, keep her focused, keep her fitting the mold the studio wanted. So when those pills became an addiction, as she took more and more to balance out her emotions, the studio didn't see it as a problem. It wasn't until it cut into their bottom line that Judy was ousted. And then she's basically given a babysitter for her London shows — a babysitter who knows to have a doctor on hand, who gets Judy dressed even as she's half out of it, whose job is to get Judy on stage no matter the condition she's in.

Judy knows it. She comments on it, jokes in interviews about the pills she was given as a child. She somehow separates herself from the trauma she endured, uses it as a punchline, and doesn't acknowledge how it shaped who she is now. She drinks as well, trying to numb her feelings because she hasn't been allowed to have any since childhood when she was simply a cog in a machine. You can't go from that life to normal life. She isn't equipped for it. So she stays in the cycle — drugs to get on stage, drugs to sleep, drugs for the nerves of performing, so she can make money, so she can be with her children.

Gia's drug use was not necessarily workplace approved in the way Judy's had been, but everyone knew of it and for a long time looked the other way. When it started affecting her performance, people whispered about her, laughed at her, complained about having to work with her. One photographer hires her anyway knowing she's having problems and treats her with kindness. But even that isn't helpful because she continues making horrible choices for her body.

It's devastating when her friend comes to visit and she asks if he has money, clearly wanting to go buy drugs. He says no. She says, well, if you want to have sex with me, give me some money and you can. Later in the film, when we think she's doing a little better, she goes into a creepy alley and is assaulted by men she tries to buy drugs from. She does heroin, something difficult to kick even in the times she goes to rehab. It's too easily accessible to her. She's so young and it makes her life go more smoothly, she thinks. She worries about getting back into modeling after a stint in rehab and does just a little bit of drugs just to take the edge off. And Linda sees and is so disappointed. But it's clear Gia can't help herself.

These women's addictions are fed, ignored, glossed over to keep them making other people money. No one wants to stick their neck out and stop the gravy train.

In Judy and in Gia, our protagonists have someone else they try to be better for, someone they want to devote their life to. But those people are never enough. And that's the heartbreak of these movies — watching these women desperately try to be there for those they love, but getting sucked back under by their addictions again and again. There's a depressing, stark realism here, showing that even love, even the potential for happiness, even knowing there's a better way — it doesn't stop addiction.

Judy was in this business since she was a child. She doesn't have life skills. She can't get a job at Taco Bell. All she can do is sing for her supper. And yet performing is what leads her to having problems, what causes her to use and abuse pills and alcohol. But she wants to be with her children so badly. Her children are who she lives for. But to be with them, she needs money to buy a house. They're sick of being shuttled around from hotel to hotel. To get money, she needs to perform. To perform, she needs drugs. And therefore she is unfit to see her children. It's a vicious cycle. Each time she seems about to escape it, she is dragged down by the inevitability of her addiction.

She's been numbed throughout life, so she can't handle true emotion, leading her from one man with false promises to another. These husbands of hers took from her, destroyed her career, lost her all her money. So she is one of the most famous people, one of the most iconic singers, struggling to get money to have somewhere to live.

With her children in their happiest moments, she is still performing, playing make-believe. Her children know this on some level. Her daughter Lorna, despite being young, seems to almost be humoring her mother when they're on the phone together, when her mother tells them about her plans for the future. You can tell she has such a love for these kids. But she didn't have a childhood, so she doesn't know what to do with them. She doesn't know how to relate to them. This play-acting she does with them is so strange, and it insulates her from any real relationship with these kids.

It makes me wonder about Liza Minnelli — about her relationship with Judy in real life, about how you feel when the rest of the world has a piece of your mother that you don't.

Gia had a reckless nature before she got into modeling, before she got into drugs, but it was clear based on her actions and the testimony of those that knew her that she had a big heart. She was desperate for love and acceptance, but she always gave it back in kind. She opened people up. She was excited to be around everyone, curious about them. She was taken with Linda immediately, intrigued by the woman who didn't judge her the way the other makeup artists and models did.

At the photo shoot where she meets Linda, the photographer is like, who wants to stay and take some naked pictures? The other models are like, ew, bye. And Gia says, I'll stay if Linda stays. And Linda stays and joins in. Gia knows Linda is special. Linda is unafraid and strong in all the ways that Gia pretends to be, in the ways that Gia is vulnerable. They are a natural pair.

Gia tries so desperately to get clean for Linda, but the pull of drugs is too much. At one point when they have reunited and she promises to be clean and they're laughing, they're hugging — Linda's laughter turns to sobs racking her body because Gia has snatched back the little baggie of drugs from Linda that Linda thought they would finally be rid of. Gia can't let it go.

No matter where she is in her life, Linda is not far from Gia's mind. She calls her, she thinks of her, she wants to make it work. Her last visit with Linda made me sob. I mean, the whole movie made me sob, but it's so brutal. I'm tearing up a little bit thinking about the scene where Gia and Linda are hugging and Gia knows that she's dying and Linda doesn't know. Oh my God.

Love, adoration — it isn't enough to overcome addiction. Both women's lives are cut short before they can become clean. Judy died of an accidental overdose and Gia's years of intravenous drug use led to AIDS. Judy was only 47 and Gia was just 26.

We look at women like this from the outside — models, singers — and we think they have it all. We wonder how they could throw it away for drugs. But these stories show us how addiction has no logic. It has no boundaries. It can take hold of anyone.

Judy and Gia are two women that are difficult, that can be unlikable. The worst thing you can be as a woman, right? Unlikable. They're unlikable right up until you adore them. Those who fall for Judy and Gia fall hard. They're polarizing figures.

Judy Garland was not someone I had personally thought much about. I liked The Wizard of Oz. As we see her life unfold, we watch the more current Judy struggle to find work, struggle to get paid, even as she still has those people that adore her. And I didn't get it. Not until we meet the fan couple outside. After Judy tells Rosalyn she doesn't want to get drinks with her, saddened by the thought that no one is waiting for her, no one is interested in her — she meets this couple. To see her through the eyes of these people that adore her showed me another side of her. The way she inspires. What her voice can bring up for people.

We see how nervous the men are to impress this iconic figure in their world and what it means to them to share a quiet night with her. She says to these guys, when one of them is talking about what he and his partner have been through: they hound people in this world, anybody who's different, they can't stand it. Well, to hell with them.

There is a kindness in her, a twinkle in her eye, and in that moment I was like — I get it. I would go to the ends of the earth for Judy Garland. You watch her interviews in real life and you see that laugh, that wry humor, how she contends with how other people see her. I think you could watch that and think, this woman's full of herself, or rude, or disconnected. But I watch it and I just see someone trying to deal with the cards they've been dealt.

Gia was a mostly unknown figure to me before I saw this movie for the first time, and I've thought about it a lot since. Angelina built a legacy for Gia, gave viewers an understanding of someone we didn't know. Someone who on first glance is overbearing, too much. But because I was able to spend two hours with her, I understood where that brashness was coming from. The vulnerability underneath, the fear she masks but doesn't ever truly hide. A fear she's willing to admit while continuing the tough girl act.

The other women at her photo shoots, upon seeing her, dislike her. She's different, she's loud. Near the beginning she has a mullet haircut. It's not great. A makeup artist upon her entrance says, oh my God, she's a beast. She scares me. And yet as he says that, he sees Gia for the first time and loves her.

I was watching interviews — I was trying to make sure I could pronounce Gia Carangi's last name. And on YouTube there's a series of talks between Cindy Lindner, who is the person Linda is based on, and model Carol Alt. They talk about Gia, about seeing her and just being entranced. There was something about this woman. The people who like her love her.

These women evoke strong responses. Men yell at Judy from her audience as women cackle behind Gia's back. And yet both have people who adore them. Nobody feels truly neutral about these women once they meet them. You either marry Judy Garland or you scream at her from her audience. And for Gia, you love her or you're scared of her.

What Gia Does Better

Judy was a big-budget, incredible, prestige-film biopic. But I think there are a few things in the honesty of Gia that are worth a look if you can only watch one of these movies.

I didn't feel a connection to Judy in the same way I did to Gia. Despite not having Gia as part of my personal cultural landscape in the way that Judy is, the way Judy's story is told — the last few months of her life and then her younger days — kept the parts of her too compartmentalized. Whereas Gia's linear story with the use of interspersed interviews provided a fuller picture of who Gia was.

The two halves of Judy felt disconnected. Young Judy and old Judy were completely different people. Yes, some of the young Judy flashbacks were in direct relation to what older Judy had going on, but older Judy acknowledged her past only with laughter. There was no reconciliation of what happened to her with what she's going through. This felt like a movie portrayal of a person rather than a real person. Renée is really fantastic, but it's an impersonation of what we already know. There are no new shades to this woman — simply a regurgitation of what has already been in the ether.

We see when she's talking to a doctor about her voice and the doctor says, do you take anything for depression? And she says, four husbands didn't work. She is never serious. I appreciate her humor being captured, but to see so few real moments from her in this exploration of her life made it hard to get on board.

From the first moment in Gia, we see who Gia is. In one of her first exchanges, she says something so expository it should have been laughable. But it wasn't, because it's just who she is, just that honesty. This guy comes up to her — she's working at a diner — and this guy TJ says he's nervous. She says, am I making you nervous? Yeah. Well good, that's the idea. Scare the shit out of people so they can't see how scared you are.

She says it with no guile. She's truly herself in everything. And we see from those who talk about her what sort of role they played in her life. Everybody wanted to be loved by Gia, and they talk about her with a reverence. She saw people for who they were and she presented herself completely honestly.

Watching these two movies got me thinking — I may prefer a movie about someone I don't know as well, because we all have a picture of who Judy is. The movie either confirms or disabuses us of our preconceived notions. Judy brought up nothing new besides me being like, what? She was only 47? But Gia was not someone I knew much about. I didn't have expectations for her story.

I would have liked if Judy had shown me who Judy was — not just how she was treated. The Judy Garland we saw was constantly behind a mask. She had her vulnerable moments, but I didn't get a feeling of connection, of humanity. The movie feels like a very glossy version of her life. Even her saddest moments felt more for dramatic effect than to show me the reality of someone.

She says in this film, I'm only Judy Garland for an hour a night. Right? Meaning the other 23 hours she's a human being. But we only see the hour where she's Judy Garland. The other 23 hours make up so little of the film.

The ending has Judy saying, I love you all. You won't forget me, will you? Promise you won't. And we haven't. We're never going to forget Judy Garland. But do we know her at all? Are we remembering a real person or an amalgamation of talent and stories? A child chewed up by the Hollywood machine, an aging star with substance problems? We see her in a variety of boxes, as pieces instead of a whole. I never get a full picture to have sympathy for.

In Gia, over the course of the story, the viewer becomes enraptured by Gia — even if you don't know the model before watching the film. It's why those who left reviews were so positive. It's why the movie lives on on Film Twitter. Because if you do see it, you will feel for this woman. Gia opens herself up to love, and so we love her.

Of course she's less jaded than Judy. We see Judy after decades in the business. But I could connect with Gia in a way I would have loved from Judy.

I hope you will give Gia a chance. It's currently on HBO Max. It's one of Angelina's best roles. And Elizabeth Mitchell — two real solid heads of hair on those two, by the way..

Under the Surface: Jaws vs Bombshell

Two movies where the villain is shrouded, where decency must triumph over convenience and greed — it's Jaws vs Bombshell.

Episode Transcript & Breakdown

Every episode of Tasteless, I take a critically acclaimed film and compare it to one that shares the same themes but didn't get the attention it deserves — and explain why that second movie is my pick. This week: two movies where the villain is shrouded, where humanity and decency must triumph over convenience and greed. It's Jaws versus Bombshell.

Jaws

When a massive killer shark unleashes chaos on a beach community off Long Island, it's up to the local police chief, a marine biologist, and an old seafarer to hunt the beast down.

This movie came out in 1975, has a 98% on Rotten Tomatoes. It won three Oscars — Best Sound, Best Film Editing (by the way, a woman, Verna Fields), and Best Original Score — again our guy John Williams. Will he ever be on the right side of a Tasteless pick? Looking at his long IMDB of classics, probably not. Jaws was also nominated for Best Picture, but lost to One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

What struck me about Jaws is when the Kintner boy is killed and his mom puts out a reward for capturing the shark that did it. The reward is $3,000. People go to fight a shark for $3,000. And you're thinking, oh, that was old-timey money. Well, in today's purchasing power, that would be $14,586.36. Excuse me — would you go into the ocean to catch a shark for a little under $15,000? I don't think many people would.

We've got our classic characters here. Brody, played by Roy Scheider — he is the sheriff of this town, the law. He's a nice guy, he has a wife, he has kids, he wants to do what's right. He gets the famous line which, according to writer Carl Gottlieb, was not scripted but ad-libbed by Roy: you're gonna need a bigger boat. How many times do you think people say that to him every day? I would lose my mind.

Then we have the scientist Hooper, played by Richard Dreyfuss. I didn't remember that Hooper is rich. He comes to this town and he's like, hey, I hear shark stuff is happening. What's up? I got a boat, I got equipment. Also, I have all this stuff because I am very wealthy. My family is very wealthy and they just put me on a boat and said, go for it, man. He's out here measuring shark mouths, just having a good time.

Then we have Quint, played by Robert Shaw, wearing a sweater that looks very itchy. Quint is the seafarer from the plot description — he's the shark-hunting expert. His ship, his rules. He's like Boomhauer of the ocean.

Some insane IMDB trivia: though respected as an actor, Robert Shaw's trouble with alcohol was a frequent source of tension during filming. Roy Scheider described his co-star as a perfect gentleman whenever he was sober — all he needed was one drink and then he turned into a competitive son of a B. When it came time to shoot the infamous USS Indianapolis scene, Shaw attempted to do the monologue while intoxicated, as it called for the men to be drinking late at night. Nothing in the take could be used. A remorseful Shaw called Steven Spielberg late that night and asked if he could have another try. The next day, Shaw's electrifying performance was done in one take. Okay, I feel like he's getting an awful lot of leeway. Also, Shaw apparently bullied Richard Dreyfuss, which honestly, when you look at him in this movie, I wanted to bully him too, so I don't blame him for that.

When we talk about Brody, Hooper, and Quint, I cannot imagine three people I'd want to be stuck on a boat with less. When they're showing off their scars and it's supposed to be this great bonding scene, it's like — an eel bit me. Okay, cool, I guess. I don't know, are eels supposed to bite you? That's not a cool thing. I was arm-wrestling because I hate my ex-wives and now I can't extend my arm. Okay, great brag, Quint. What are you talking about?

I have a hard time with this movie because I am on the shark's side 100%. Just let this shark have the ocean. It's his. You lost. Your fleshy bodies keep getting eaten. Find somewhere else to hang out. Build a pool. I'm Team Bruce. Bruce, of course, is the name of the mechanical sharks they built for this set. In addition to the well-known nickname of Bruce, Steven Spielberg also called the shark "the great white turd." Notoriously, the shark broke down, didn't do what it was supposed to — they built it and were like, it works great. Then they put it in water and it didn't work because it didn't work in salt water. Nonsense.

But I am very scared, not of sharks, but of animatronics. As a child, probably 11 or 12, I went to Universal, went on the Jaws ride. In the ride, a big mechanical shark comes up to your boat and kind of splashes around and your tour guide is like, oh no, oh no, and shoots at it and flames explode. And I had nightmares for months after — not about being eaten by a shark, but about falling in and having the gears and mechanics grind me up that made the shark go. I did the Universal Studios tour in California within the last couple of years and again saw that mechanical shark and was like, no, he's gonna get me. He's hanging out in the Murder, She Wrote village.

Everyone has seen Jaws. You know the plot. There was a very fun trivia fact: several decades after the release of Jaws, Lee Fierro, who played Mrs. Kintner — the mother of the boy who gets eaten — walked into a seafood restaurant and noticed the menu had an Alex Kintner sandwich. She commented that she had played his mother so many years ago. The owner of the restaurant ran out to meet her. He was none other than Jeffrey Voorhees, who had played her son. They had not seen each other since the original movie shoot. Very cute. Very chill name for that kid, Jeffrey Voorhees.

Bombshell

A group of women take on Fox News head Roger Ailes and the toxic atmosphere he presided over at the network.

This movie came out in 2019, has a 68% on Rotten Tomatoes. It actually won the Oscar for Best Achievement in Makeup and Hairstyling for Kazu Hiro, Anne Morgan, and Vivian Baker.

My old roommate slash good friend is an incredible makeup artist, and she brought me along to a makeup guild screening of this film. It was such a great movie. I loved it. It had one of the best trailers of all time, as far as I'm concerned — where the three stars get into the elevator and that song is playing and they're looking at each other. It's so good.

At the screening, Kazu Hiro was there and mentioned that he had worked on Mighty Joe Young with Charlize. As it turns out, Charlize Theron coaxed prosthetic makeup artist Kazu Hiro out of retirement for his work on this film, and he won his second Academy Award for his efforts. He had previously won for Darkest Hour after turning Gary Oldman into Winston Churchill. When I saw the trailers, I thought her Megyn Kelly makeup was going to be distracting, but once you're watching the movie, it really works. She does a good job of recreating Megyn's look and vibe.

Charlize was nominated for Best Actress at the Oscars and Margot Robbie was nominated for Best Supporting Actress. Charlize lost to Renée Zellweger for Judy — people love a sad biopic — and Laura Dern won Supporting Actress for Marriage Story, which I am highly uninterested in. I think Margot's performance in this movie is incredible, as is Charlize's.

Let's talk Charlize. She plays Megyn Kelly, a real person, a Fox News host and anchor. She wields the word "feminist" like it's disgusting. She says at one point, I'm not a feminist, I'm a lawyer. The way they use the word feminist as an insult does remind the viewer of where we are, of what world we're in — slash just the human world. Having Charlize as Megyn narrate the story, talk to the camera — I really enjoyed it. When that works, it really works.

There's a hardness to her because there has to be to survive in this world. I am not a fan of the real Megyn Kelly — the one kind of big thing they allude to is that she said Santa is definitely white, which — okay, he's imaginary, so I don't know what you're talking about. But I'm not endorsing the actions of any Fox News employee by saying I love this movie. Regardless of party lines, this is a story that is important, a story that needs to be told. The fact that so many of these women had the same thing happen and all were worried about coming forward, about losing their livelihood — when Gretchen Carlson came forward, it broke a dam. There is bravery in that. We can't just care about crimes happening to people we agree with. That creates a bad system for everyone.

Nicole Kidman is perhaps the most sidelined in the movie as Gretchen Carlson, even though she gets the ball rolling on the charges against Roger Ailes. We see her talking to lawyers about the way she's been treated, playing back tapes of all the times on air that men said disparaging, disgusting things to her — and she bit back, but had to laugh it off, because otherwise it's going to be awkward. She had to act like she was in on the joke, like it was all in good fun. Because there's that famous saying: men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them. You don't want to set someone off.

It's very affecting to watch her watch herself. Think back about how you've handled difficult situations — I don't think all of us have always been at our best. She wants to make it clear that just because she laughed along awkwardly, that's not what she wanted. She doesn't want to be treated that way. And it's important to remember that just because someone laughs along, doesn't mean you should be saying those things.

Margot Robbie plays Kayla, the composite character of the trio — not based on a real person, but instead an amalgamation of various reports about working at Fox News. She's a quilt of the bad experiences these women have faced, and we empathize with her bright-eyed optimism, her wit.

The scene of real-life character Roger Ailes asking the fictitious character of Kayla Pospisil to lift up her skirt was filmed with multiple cameras capturing all the angles at once. Jay Roach didn't want Robbie to have to perform that scene for more than one take. This is a brutal scene and she plays it so well. It's so real. It's so striking.

Basically she goes in to meet with Roger and he says, stand up and do a little spin. And she's kind of like, what? He says, you know, on-air talent, you're going to be on camera, I just want to see you. And she goes, oh, okay, and does a little spin. He goes, okay, lift your skirt up a little bit. She pauses a little longer and pulls her skirt up a little bit. He goes, higher. She pulls it a little higher. Inch by inch, it comes up so you can see her underwear and she is mortified. She is humiliated. And he's like, okay, great, well, you better prove your loyalty, and sends her on her way. And the other heartbreaking thing — she's like, could you not tell anyone about this? And he's like, of course not. She doesn't want people to know, because she'll be blamed. She did it. She agreed to do it.

A reason it's so hard to watch is because, to a lesser extent, we've all been in situations where we go along with something we're not comfortable with so as not to rock the boat. Maybe someone says something inappropriate and you just sort of laugh and brush it off and hope it goes away.

Margot to me was the character I related to the most, and her relationship with Kate McKinnon is one of the more touching aspects of the film and one of the more frustrating and heartbreaking. Kate McKinnon plays a closeted lesbian, closeted Democrat who works at Fox and takes Margot under her wing. Kate basically says, here's how you survive here. Here's what you want in stories — you want to frighten and titillate. Ask yourself what would scare your grandmother and piss off your grandfather. That's a Fox News story. She's funny, but it's also sad that she can't be herself. Her and Margot wind up going home together, sharing a bed. There's a chemistry there. But neither can be who they are, and Kate has shoved her feelings so far down.

John Lithgow plays Roger Ailes in a lot of prosthetics. He's great. I love John Lithgow. Malcolm McDowell plays Rupert Murdoch. The supporting cast in this movie — I'm going to run through it. Darcy Carden gets to yell at Margot Robbie. Lennon Parham eats some grocery store sushi. Connie Britton plays Roger's wife and says at one point, very genuinely, hoodies are creepy. Alanna Ubach plays Judge Jeanine Pirro. Holland Taylor plays the secretary to Roger. Rob Delaney plays someone who works with Megyn. We've got Brie Larson, Josh Lawson and Ben Lawson as brothers, Liv Hewson, Richard Kind, Alice Eve, Madeline Zima, Ashley Greene, Katie Aselton, Tricia Helfer, Robin Weigert, Mark Duplass, Jennifer Morrison, Allison Janney. It is quite a cast.

Jay Roach directed another great political film, Game Change — and he directed all the Austin Powers movies, and that is called range.

Bombshell is a movie that I think you need to watch. It really does a good job of putting you in someone else's shoes. Would I have thought I'd watch and love a movie about Fox News? No. Absolutely not. But this movie did a great job of stripping away my biases, getting me on board with the universe we're in. Some people think it excused the women of Fox News, and that's where we get into a gray area, and we don't need to villainize. This is a story about assault. The villains here are the people who have built a system that allows that to happen without consequence, and that can happen to anyone.

Shared Themes

Jaws and Bombshell both have a villain that is lurking under the surface — an iceberg with most of the threat going unnoticed until it is far too late. A villain that people disagree on how to face. Some think their presence should be brushed under the rug, while others want to confront this villain head-on. It's insidious.

The villains are a real mean shark and workplace assault and objectification. Two sides of the same coin. Only those who have faced these threats themselves really understand the dangers. And other people are of the opinion: out of sight, out of mind. Don't go in the water. Don't wear a short skirt. But that's not feasible and it's not fair.

Jaws has one of the most iconic antagonists of all time in the form of its great white shark — a shark that gets only four minutes of screen time. The threat of the shark is what looms over the people of Amity, but the issue is that they disagree on just how big of a threat it is. We see this so clearly when Brody's wife comes in — Brody's reading a shark book and she's like, man, let's get drunk and fool around. The kids are out on some boat and Brody's like, oh my God, kids, get off the boat. And the wife goes, don't worry about it, they're fine. Then she flips open his book and sees a picture of a shark ripping flesh and immediately starts screaming at the kids to get back on land, listen to their dad. It takes seeing that picture in the context of her kids out on the water for it to feel like a real threat to her.

The fishermen that rush into the ocean to get their reward are giddy at the thought of this excursion. Chumming the waters, captaining their dinky boats, no fear, no respect for the wildlife. When Quint gets there, he basically says, hey dummies, sharks kill people. This is a problem and I could solve it. Everyone else had been very wishy-washy about wanting to keep the beaches open. They have this town hall meeting — the beaches are going to be closed? We gotta go to the beaches. Be quiet. Go away. People will come back to your beach. Chill out.

The main antagonist of Bombshell is Roger Ailes, though we explore the system that put him in power. If he had had beady little eyes and maybe too many teeth, would he have been taken down sooner? Seen as a real threat by those in his orbit, those who aren't directly threatened by him? Most people don't see Roger on a regular basis. He's on his own floor, his own office, with Holland Taylor guarding the door and a clicker remote that opens it. Very disconnected.

People joke about the workplace culture. They talk about how Roger has a separate elevator for women to arrive in. They joke about the other men there, like Bill O'Reilly. It's all said with a laugh, with no real threat. Margot loves Fox — it's been her dream to work there. She hears the stories about the misogyny in its ranks but continues to idolize the network until she comes face-to-face with Roger's harassment. Till he makes her lift her skirt.

She tries to bring this info to Kate McKinnon and is shut down. When Gretchen Carlson tells her story, many women of Fox scramble to support Roger, not wanting to look disloyal, knowing they can be replaced. Many women say it never happened to them, and one man comments that the women it hasn't happened to are not attractive. We see older people talking about how nice Roger is while younger women get more leg out to please him. We also hear the other side of Roger — the man who pays for cancer treatments and supports his employees. Some people think that gives him the right to act as he pleases.

It takes determined people from all walks of life to take down the shark and to take down Roger.

For Jaws, it's Brody with his guilt over the Kintner boy, with Alex's mom's funeral attire stuck in his mind — he is dedicated to keeping his town safe. He's scared of the water but goes in because it feels like his duty. Hooper joins because he's an expert, the person who has determined that the other shark caught isn't the threat. He's passionate about the field. Quint is the expert on the water, here for the money. He has the experience, the grit, the boat. These three different motives come together. They attack from all angles — with knowledge, with grit, with brains — and that's how they accomplish their goals.

For Bombshell, we have Gretchen Carlson, who has finally had enough, who has been humiliated and demeaned and shuffled to the worst time slots. She decides to do something, to say something. She gets the ball rolling with her public accusations and lawsuit. This leads to Megyn Kelly's crisis of faith — should she admit what has happened to her? She starts an investigation of her own, and when she finds out how many other women have been affected, she decides her voice is necessary. Having it come from a veteran of the station adds weight, adds truth.

Each person who comes forward has to weigh their options. And okay, Roger gets an incredible severance and is living a nice life. But the fact that Gretchen gets an apology — she even notes, like, that's very rare.

Unfortunately, convenience, ease, and greed all trump humanity in Jaws and in Bombshell. The worst mayor of any town is this dude in Amity. What a freak. And right up there with him are the many employees of Fox News — people more concerned about the bottom line than lives being ruined.

The Kintner boy's mom walks up to Brody and slaps him right in his face and says, look, you knew last week a woman had died in this water and you didn't do anything. In the book, it's revealed that the mayor is being blackmailed by the mafia to keep the beaches open. In the movie, he just sucks. He keeps saying, don't scare anyone, keep the beaches open, I'm sure that shark is gone.

Brody gets that slap and I don't know that I fully blame him. It's fair for him to think the first body that turned up was a boat propeller that killed her. But I do know the town does not want it to be a shark and would rather believe anything else. The mayor fights to keep the beaches open, promises to have the problem dealt with in 24 hours. And then when everyone is out on the beach, when it's been deemed safe because some other shark has been caught, the mayor is truly walking up to people like, hey, go out in the water. Why are you sitting over here? And this old man he's haranguing is like, what? I just put my suntan lotion on. I'm letting it seep in, but okay. And he walks off into the water, and then — boom, shark.

Suntan man lives. He doesn't get bit. But others die. And Brody's kid is in full shock. Brody had been worried — he couldn't help but wonder if Hooper's analysis of the shark's mouth was correct, if they hadn't caught the right shark — but he didn't want to deal with that possibility. He didn't push it. He allowed the beaches to open again. Luckily, his guilt and his goodness do make him swing back in the other direction, demanding the mayor approve hiring a shark-catching expert. He will not let something like this happen on his watch again.

In Bombshell, the network doesn't want to admit its mistakes and be liable. The women don't want to support Gretchen and lose their jobs. Kimberly Guilfoyle makes everyone wear shirts showing their support for Roger and Fox. She's so far in the opposite direction trying to prove he's good.

Here's the deal: if my coworker, my boss, was accused of assault, I think I'd take a beat before I went gung-ho supporting them. This person isn't your best friend. How much can you even really know about your super-rich boss who has their own weird button to close their office door?

But these women don't want to be wrong. And there's a more insidious fear — that if one woman got promoted by allowing Roger's treatment, people will think all the women did. No one wants the public believing they got their job based on what they were willing to do for Roger behind closed doors. It's embarrassing.

One of the most heartbreaking moments in Bombshell is when Margot comes out of Roger's office after he's inappropriate with her and goes to her friend Kate McKinnon. Margot starts to confess what has just happened. Kate interrupts: "It's actually better if you don't involve me in this." At the end of the day, Kate values her job security over her friend.

She had said earlier that she applied to a million jobs and only Fox called back. And now no reputable place wants to hire her because she works at Fox. She feels stuck. She sees her only option is to not support those who have come forward.

People must choose hardship. They must choose the possibility of losing their job, their reputation, of being unpopular. Some must admit something they have held secret for so long. And that's not easy. It all bubbles under the surface. It's the humanity that gets Megyn to admit what has happened — because she thought, in the abstract, I'm sure it's not happening to that many people. But when she starts paying attention and listening and hearing how many women have been treated inappropriately by Roger, by other people at Fox, she can't sit idly by. She chooses humanity over job security.

Both Jaws and Bombshell explore gender in a different way, a more honest way, a way that aligns with real life.

When I was watching Jaws, I actually Googled "nice friendship Jaws" to see if other people saw what I saw. And I was glad that the internet agreed that the bond between these men shows another side of masculinity, one we don't get to see as often. Do I hate these three men? For sure. I do not like them. But I like that once they gain each other's respect, all three are all in as a team. There's no fight to be the one who takes the shark, no battle for dominance. Each man brings something to the table and each man steps aside when someone else's expertise is needed.

There's some arguing, as there is with anyone, but it really was a well-oiled machine because these men trusted one another. Brody is perhaps the most sensitive of the three — he loves his family, takes Mrs. Kintner's slap in stride thinking he deserves it. Quint is an aggressive jerk, but as soon as he realizes Hooper knows his stuff, he chills out and offers a drink. Hooper is a rich dandy, basically — someone who you'd think would not do well on a rickety boat chasing a giant beast, but he is right at home. None of these men are posturing. They're simply themselves. There were a lot of ways for these to be three macho guys off fighting a shark. But no — these are two pretty normal guys and then a weirdo who truly looks like he just got dragged up from the depths of the sea.

Bombshell's exploration of gender is a little more confronting — it's the purpose of the film. Seeing the truth of how women survive, what we do to fit in. The constant remarks to the women about their legs. The heels with band-aids for blisters. There's a truth here that is hard to stomach. Instead of just seeing the bright shiny faces that wind up on news screens, we see the dark underbelly of what goes into creating the image of the perfect conservative woman.

There are sacrifices women make so that our lives will be easier, things we put up with. If you're picking a fight every moment of the day, it's just too exhausting. When we see Gretchen Carlson's show with no makeup and she talks about Day of the Girl and how important it is, we also see the backlash she gets — the anger from viewers and the network about having to see a woman's real face. Our characters work to fit the mold, to keep their jobs, while also wondering at what point is it too much. This is the truth behind femininity — a game of inches, compromises. I'm not saying women don't want to wear makeup and look nice. But at Fox in particular, it is a very specific mold these women must fill. Honestly, in entertainment, it's a specific mold — a way you must be perceived.

What Bombshell Did Better

Jaws led to real innocent lives lost, while Bombshell opened our eyes to suffering we may not have been aware of, or at least weren't confronted with in the same way. Jaws invented a villain while Bombshell brought a real person's crimes further into the light.

The shark in Jaws may as well be Godzilla. The entity itself is a complete fabrication. But the unfortunate thing is that people viewed this movie as gospel. Much like the scene in the film where fishermen went out in droves to get their $3,000, many fishermen decided to take on sharks after seeing this movie to prove that they could. Commercial fishing at a large scale began contributing to deaths of sharks. The general populace's view of sharks as evil entities was really helped along by Jaws. Author Peter Benchley, who wrote the book the movie was based on, has said that if he had known about the actual behavior of sharks, he would have never written the book. He told the Animal Attack Files in 2000: no one appreciates how vulnerable they are to destruction. It shows the power of media. Sharks are this apex predator, but they are in so much danger because of the ways they are used — like shark-fin soup. They get caught in nets meant for other things. Having us hate them does not help.

When Bombshell came out, people seemed genuinely frustrated that it gave humanity to Fox News employees, which I think was an important and interesting lesson. We don't know everyone's story. But if someone is doing evil things, they should be punished for it. The film showed the evil lurking under the surface. I'm sure many of us had heard about Gretchen Carlson's lawsuit and that Megyn Kelly added her voice, but it was easy to ignore as someone else's problem — stuff happening between rich people, rich conservative people. Because to be frank, it tends to be the liberal side that more often gives air to these stories, that more often takes these accusations seriously. So when we were finding out about what happened to conservative women, I think there was a little bit of an attitude of, they were asking for it. But this affects everyone.

In Jaws, the biggest tragedy is the death of the Kintner boy, and the fact that it could have been avoided had people known to stay out of the water. We see the effects of the boy's death for only a few moments with his mother. Brody's family has a couple of close calls — his son is shocked by an attack but not injured. Hooper has a much more scientific stake than an emotional one. Quint dies, but he kind of deserved it. He was a little off the handle. I enjoyed the exploration of Brody's guilt, but he also has the peace of a wife that loves unconditionally, two young boys who are healthy. The stakes Brody, Quint, and Hooper have in capturing the shark are definitely diluted. None of these three have faced real tragedy in what we've seen, besides Quint's USS Indianapolis story.

In Bombshell, we follow the tales of women who have had everything taken from them — their dignity, their voice. We see Gretchen's fear and isolation when at first no one comes to her support. We see Megyn's anguish over whether coming forward would ruin the lives of her family. We see Margot break down sobbing into her phone outside a fancy restaurant, wondering what it means that this has happened to her. These are the people directly affected, and there are dozens more who we visit along the way.

All movies don't have to tell the stories of all people. But Bombshell is something that has stuck with me since my initial viewing, much in the way that the Jaws theme has stuck with us all. I'm glad stories like this are being told from all sides. If you haven't seen it, I hope you will give Bombshell a chance. And honestly, you can always rewatch Jaws.

Hit me up at @tastelesspod on social media. Let's talk about all the incredible people who are in Bombshell — Holland Taylor, Darcy Carden, Lennon Parham, Jennifer Morrison. What a dream cast. And Margot should have gotten that Oscar. The scene of her lifting her skirt is abhorrent and beautifully acted.

A Hero Lies in You: Star Wars vs Spy

Two movies where people become the sort of hero they’ve long admired, filling the shoes of those who have come before to save lives from greedy imperialists, and finding a support system along the way — it's Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope vs Spy.

Episode Transcript & Breakdown

Every episode of Tasteless, I take a critically acclaimed film and compare it to one that shares the same themes but didn't get the attention it deserves — and explain why that second movie is my pick. This week: two movies about people that become the sort of hero they've long admired, filling the shoes of those who have come before them to save lives from greedy imperialists. And they find a support system along the way. It's Star Wars versus Spy.

Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope

A farmboy joins forces with various allies to save their galaxy from the evil Empire's planet-destroying battle station, while also rescuing the princess leading the rebellion against them.

This movie came out in 1977, has a 92% on Rotten Tomatoes. It's so weird to talk about this movie so objectively, just like — this movie came out in 1977. Like, it's Star Wars.

It's number 25 on the IMDB Top 250 and it won six Oscars, which I hadn't known. Best Art Direction, Best Costume Design, Best Sound, Best Film Editing, Best Visual Effects, and Best Original Score — of course, John Williams, come on. It was nominated for another four, including Best Picture, Best Supporting Actor for Alec Guinness — who watched this and was like, you know who really pops? Alec Guinness. That's Obi-Wan Kenobi. The weird guy in the desert. All right — Best Director, and Best Screenplay. George Lucas wrote and directed this movie. This was his vision, and I just can't imagine how good it would feel to have your passion project become one of the most massive pieces of cinema in history.

I think it's hard to even comprehend how much of filmmaking since the first few Star Wars movies was influenced by it. So I'm going to do my best to look back at it as just a piece. There are a lot of better explorations of the Star Wars universe in podcast form, in book form. I'm here to talk about the first film with a semi-fresh set of eyes — I hadn't seen it in probably 20 years until I revisited it for this.

I was really surprised by the structure because it really throws you right into the world, into the battle between the Rebel Alliance and the Empire. You don't see Luke Skywalker until we're pretty far into what's going on.

I really wanted to watch the original version, but there's like a million versions. The one I watched, the crawl at the beginning says "Episode Four." But when this came out, you didn't know it was episode four — so this has been altered. This is the same as the Han-shot-first thing. Initially, Han Solo shoots Greedo. Then when George Lucas revisited the movies — because this dude is a tinkerer — he changed it so that Greedo shoots first, I guess making it so that Han isn't just a cold-blooded murderer. In this version, it was either they shot at the same time or Greedo shot first. Regardless, I just want to watch the purest version of this film. It's a Blade Runner situation except more complicated because there's a less clear-cut consensus on what version is correct.

By the way, let's talk about Greedo for a second — the green dude that Han Solo shot first. This guy was played by three different people. Actor Paul Blake played him when Han and Greedo are in the same frame. Actress Maria De Aragon wore an animatronic mask for head closeups. And linguist Larry Ward provided Greedo's voice. Why couldn't the guy who did his voice be the one in the suit? And why couldn't the one in the suit wear the animatronic head? I don't understand. It feels like George Lucas made things very complicated for himself.

But we kick off with stormtroopers versus rebels on the ship. The rebels — these freaks — their helmets are so long and so stupid. The stormtrooper outfit has stuck around with us because it is such a cool costume, like Power Rangers style, where every kid should be this costume because it is cool. And then the rebels got these roly-poly helmets going down their heads like they're sad, khaki aliens from the movie Alien. They look like straight-up dummies. I don't know how they got us to root for these guys.

When Luke Skywalker and Han Solo get on the ship and put on stormtrooper outfits — Luke Skywalker with a stormtrooper outfit with the helmet off is so attractive. I am so into Luke Skywalker and Han Solo with stormtrooper outfits on. Great outfit.

Before we even get to Luke, we see C-3PO and R2-D2. It's not often on screen you get to see a robot hunched over. Usually a robot is standing up straight. But in this movie, C-3PO — played by Anthony Daniels in a suit — has bad posture. And I felt seen. I felt like I was seeing myself on screen for the first time as C-3PO. There is so much C-3PO and R2-D2 up front as this weird buddy duo. This dude is just whining and R2-D2 is like, boop boop beep boop. And C-3PO is like, R2-D2? We gotta get off the ship!

But let's talk about Carrie Fisher. Oh my God. I watched the Star Wars movies once and that was it. I'm going to revisit them because watching this first one, I really was like, wow, this laid so much groundwork. Princess Leia is so cool. And I'm surprised to revisit it now and realize I didn't immediately glom onto her, because I know Carrie Fisher better from just being Carrie Fisher — from the books she's written, from her public persona, from just being tremendously witty and cool, from her kind interactions with people.

There is something so lasting, so important about Princess Leia. You feel it from the moment you see her in this movie — the strength, the confidence, the humor, the toughness. It's so wonderful that Carrie Fisher found this role, that this role found her. I can't imagine it being anyone else ever.

Now, it's clear George Lucas did not know Luke and Leia were going to be siblings. They flirt hardcore. They kiss. But the twist of Darth Vader being Anakin, being Luke's father, is one of the best in cinema and adds important weight to Luke's journey — which is why this is one of those movies where the more you watch it, the more it all fits together.

When we see Luke, we get to Tatooine and he is a baby. Mark Hamill is so young and he's like, Uncle Owen, I wanted to go to the Tosche Station for power converters. And Uncle Owen's like, you can see your friends when you're done with your chores, Luke. What is this? Why? I forget that he was a teen.

So he meets R2-D2 and C-3PO because they get bought to work on this farm. Very uncool. Don't like this robot slavery. R2-D2 has this little message he keeps playing — the very famous hologram of Leia being like, help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope. Which is the least helpful message. Help you with what, lady? What is your problem? And Luke sees this video and he's like, who is she? She's beautiful. So clearly George Lucas did not know she was his sister.

Alec Guinness is Obi-Wan Kenobi, this old guy out in the desert, who gets called back into action. He shows Luke the lightsaber his dad left for him. The lightsaber sounds are still so satisfying. I think the lightsaber sounds are why this movie became a phenomenon. Just the sound design. Oh my God.

Luke's Uncle Owen is such a freaking liar. He's like, that guy's not Obi-Wan Kenobi, that's old Ben. He's very different. There's a lot of Kenobis, it's like Smith. But then the uncle and aunt die, and Obi-Wan and Luke are investigating what happened. They see a destroyed sand crawler and Luke's like, do we think the sand people did it? And Obi-Wan is like, no, they wanted us to think they did, but only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise. Which — Ben Kenobi is basically saying these shots are so accurate, no one is more accurate than a stormtrooper. Which is insane in a world that knows stormtroopers are the worst shots on earth. You watch them even in this movie spray laser bullets all over the place and not hit anyone even when people are right in front of them.

Luke finds out his aunt and uncle are dead and he's like, okay great, I'll go with you Kenobi, let's go. They go meet Han Solo, a smuggler with Chewbacca. Harrison Ford is so rude. He keeps calling his ship the Millennium Falcon. It's a falcon, you freak. A bird's a falcon. My ship the Millennium Falcon did the Kessel Run in point parsecs. Okay, great. You hang out with a giant dog. What's your problem? He really is the biggest turd.

In one of the later movies when Leia says I love you and he says I know — he seems like a grump too, even though he wears an earring. He is an adult man with an earring. Why is he so mad all the time? He's living the life. He says at one point in this movie, if we can avoid any more female advice, we might just be able to get out of here. Shut up, dude. Princess Leia is the only cool one.

Multiple people call Princess Leia differently, which really threw me off. There are so many accents in this movie. It reminded me of the Harry Potter books where everyone argued over how to pronounce Hermione. You can't call her Leia and Lay-a and the Millennium Falcon. What are we doing? I don't know why that's okay. Everybody else has covered every other element of Star Wars, so this is where I stake my flag. My important issues.

Everything about the world-building in this movie is so good. This was meant to be an epic series. It really was and it deserved that. If you haven't watched the first one in a while, I really suggest revisiting it. I enjoyed it a lot. I barely even talked about the plot because it's Star Wars — you know the plot. They go in their little ships, they fly around, he shoots up in that hole in the Death Star and it explodes. That's Star Wars.

Please, people who love Star Wars, don't come for me. I really do like it. I understand why people have devoted their lives to it in the way that I have devoted my life to Sandra Bullock and my cat. I get it fully.

Spy

A desk-bound CIA analyst volunteers to go undercover to infiltrate the world of a deadly arms dealer and prevent diabolical global disaster.

This movie came out in 2015 and has a 95% on Rotten Tomatoes. Now you see why I had to bring out the big guns with a Star Wars comparison.

This one is tricky because on this podcast I usually try to highlight movies that either not enough people saw or that were reviewed poorly and I disagree. This movie was reviewed very well by critics, and I find that the pockets of the internet that I interact with, people who share my same interests, all love this movie. But I found it very interesting that when I posted about it on Instagram, I got many DMs saying, this movie is so underrated. So there's this like — all of us are secretly loving this movie and thinking that no one else loves it like we do.

In this context, yes, it was reviewed fairly, but it should have had five sequels. It should be a series in the way that James Bond is a series. It should have gotten an Oscar. It's such a good movie.

Paul Feig is the George Lucas of comedy, and he wrote and directed this film. I have been in love with Paul ever since Sabrina the Teenage Witch, where he played a teacher, Mr. Pool. I love him so much. I love Freaks and Geeks. I love Spy. I love A Simple Favor. I love his dapper suits. He's so funny. There should be seven Spys. How many Star Warses are there? Ten? There should be ten Spys. There should be eleven Spys immediately. Unacceptable that there aren't.

This is Melissa McCarthy's best role. I know people love Bridesmaids, right? But no — Spy is it. The depth of this character, the different levels she gets to play it at — it's truly the culmination of Melissa McCarthy's talents. To play so funny, so crazy, so awkward, so vulnerable, and be such a real human at the same time.

She's one of the office workers, right? She has all the intel and she's speaking to an in-the-field CIA agent, keeping an eye out on him, watching through cameras, letting him know schematics, where to turn, what to do. When her charge, Jude Law — the agent in the field — is killed, she volunteers to go into action to finish the job he started.

When she decides to go undercover, they give her these horrible covers — Carol Jenkins, who she says looks like somebody's homophobic aunt. Penny Morgan, a divorced housewife from Iowa with ten cats. She's like, why? When Jude Law goes in the field, he gets to be a businessman. Why is this what I am? But that's how people see her. And this movie dives into that in such an interesting way.

The way she changes from nervous and unsure of herself to confident when Rose Byrne, the villain, thinks she's blown her cover — this is range. Because all the levels she plays it at, even when the character Melissa is playing is undercover, you understand the heart of who that main initial character was.

Jude Law, her CIA agent in the field, thinks she has cats, talks to her about it all the time. A lot of cat-lady bashing in here, Paul Feig, but I'm going to take it as satire of the type of person that people think she is. He gets her jewelry and she's so touched because she's in love with him — he's gorgeous and kind and cool. She opens it and it's this mean little cupcake necklace. He has really put her in a box of the kind of non-threatening, just shell of a person. And she lets him. Because she has to gain new confidence.

Let's get into the Rose Byrne of it all, because Paul Feig has really done right by Rose Byrne. I feel like Bridesmaids is what brought her back into the American comedic consciousness, because she has been acting incredibly in so many things for so many years. She is a highlight of anything she's in. She gives her all in every single role.

In Spy she gets to be so mean and so funny and just incredible. Every line she delivers with a scowl, with derision, is perfect. At one point she's playing Candy Crush while talking to Melissa. Melissa's like, you're being very rude. They are such a great push and pull. And when Melissa's character brings it up to eleven, Rose Byrne very quickly is like, okay, cool it. Bring it down a notch.

The chemistry slash rivalry between Rose Byrne and Melissa makes this movie. That is the driving force behind why it's so funny, why it sticks in my mind, why it's so enjoyable on a rewatch.

There's a respect between them. The way they joke with each other and make fun of each other is so human and ridiculous. There's a moment at the end where Rose has been captured and she kind of gives this little smile to Melissa because at the end of the day she does like her. They do enjoy each other. I like that they have this weird mutual respect.

What's incredible about Rose Byrne is that not only is she a shining light on the screen, but she coaxes the best possible performances out of her co-stars. Her presence always raises the bar. She is what made Neighbors work — instead of being a nagging wife, her and Seth Rogen are such equal partners and she pulls that out of people. She was the perfect maddening enemy for Kristen Wiig in Bridesmaids. I love her in the Annie remake as the person that pulls Jamie Foxx out of his shell. She's just so talented and elevates everything she's in. I adore her. And if pressed to pick a favorite role of hers, Spy might be it.

This movie also has Jason Statham, who's usually — he's fine in things. Hobbs and Shaw was cute. But he is so funny in this. He's this insane tough guy spy stereotype who just rattles off nonsense and thinks he's so tough but also never quite knows what's going on. At one point he totally screws up and Melissa McCarthy kind of shrugs to the room of bad guys and says, he means well. He does — he wants to be this tough guy spy, he really thinks he's suave, but nothing he does goes quite right.

I love how Allison Janney talks to Jason Statham, because Jason is another spy in the CIA and Allison Janney is in charge of them. She is so mean to him. She's so mean to Melissa McCarthy. In this very funny, brisk way.

We have Miranda Hart, a brilliant comedian actress, as Melissa McCarthy's confidant — another person who does the same job she does, gathering intel. She has a fling with 50 Cent and there's a line in this movie I think about all the time, it's so small, but when she goes, simmer down, 50 Cents — I think it's so funny.

We have an array of fantastic Paul Feig regulars. Michael McDonald, who comes up with the tech options for Melissa going into the field — but instead of cool stuff, like a shoe that's a gun, she's given anti-fungal spray that is actually freezing powder. Stool softener pills that are actually antidotes to poison. A watch, but it has a picture from the film Beaches on it. Then we have Jessica Chaffin, Sam Richardson, Adam Ray, Katie Dippold, Jamie Denbo, Zach Woods — all these comedic people I adore. Morena Baccarin from Firefly as a rival agent. Peter Serafinowicz as Aldo, this ridiculous man. Bobby Cannavale as a bad guy — of course, Rose Byrne's husband. He's so good as a bad guy named De Luca with slicked-back hair. I would give him the nuclear codes as well.

The only knock I have against this movie — the only bad thing I can say — is that there is a barf scene where Melissa McCarthy barfs all over. Why does every movie gotta have a barf? Why?

I also, when trying to find a bad review, found one from the World Socialist Web Site that says, does it occur to Feig or anyone involved in the making of Spy that not everyone dotes on the forces of law and order nor finds their operations as endlessly fascinating as he apparently does? Is this what I sound like when I talk about movies I don't like? I love that this person said this comedy doesn't work because I think it glorifies the CIA. This is a comedy of errors. No one is looking at this and going, I want to work for the CIA. That would be insane. It is a comedy movie, you freaks.

Shared Themes

Luke Skywalker and Melissa McCarthy are looking for adventure, for something different than the rut they have found themselves stuck in, but neither is sure what they're looking for. They've always been told that they are where they should be — Luke on the moisture farm, Melissa in what is called the basement, the part of the CIA that's not in the field. Both know that they're frustrated, unsatisfied, feeling stuck and unappreciated. They're not seen as real, formidable humans, but instead as shadows — they're looked past. But they don't know what to do about it.

They are in some dark way freed to become who they want to be, to live up to their potential, by the death of a loved one. Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru — I wrote "Aunt Unspecified" in my notes and had to Google it, and I was like, I bet she has a name. Aunt Beru. We definitely hear Uncle Owen about 18 times. We don't hear Aunt Beru. But whatever — they are killed by stormtroopers right when Luke has to make a choice. He may not have been able to bring himself to leave behind the farm and the only family he's known, but when he finds his home burned, his family dead, he realizes there is nothing left for him on Tatooine. He is freed to follow Obi-Wan Kenobi.

In Spy, Melissa has served as a consultant to Jude Law. She's watched over him. Has put her life on the sidelines to make sure he can fully live his. She fires his gardener while she tries — it doesn't work out. She picks up his dry cleaning. So when he is killed, she has to restructure. She has to figure out who she is without him. And she decides to go into the field to avenge him.

Luke and Melissa are finally given no other choice than to live out their desire for more, for action, for making something of themselves. What's up with uncles, by the way? Uncle Owen, Uncle Ben — don't kill someone's uncle if you're a bad guy. It's not a good move. It's going to lead to a lot of issues.

What I love about Luke and Melissa is their almost naive enthusiasm, their total lack of ego surrounding what they do. They want to be part of something, they want to make a difference, but neither is out for themselves. They're genuine people who feel a sense of duty to those who have come before them, those who have protected them, those who have fought for the side of good. Luke and Melissa throw themselves fully into their missions just because it's the right thing to do.

In Star Wars, Luke Skywalker wants to be an Imperial Military Academy space pilot, but he has to stay home and help on the moisture farm, collect all that moisture. The moment he learns that his father was more than he thought — that his father was a brave man who died in battle — Luke feels hope that he too can make a difference. It's not about making a name for himself, but about showing himself that he can do it, that he has it in him. Just to scratch this itch of wanting to be more.

In Spy, Melissa wants to carry through the missions of the CIA, an organization she does believe in. She's so committed to her work. She keeps helping Jude Law as bats attack her head in one of the opening scenes. Everyone else is eating fun cakes and she's just busy working because she believes in it. There's no glory in that for her, but it's what she thinks is right. She wants to follow in the footsteps of Jude Law and of the agents that came before her.

Luke Skywalker and Melissa McCarthy tap into a different piece of themselves in a way that is inspirational, in a way that shows there is something special in everyone.

The Luke Skywalker thing is hard because some of the movies make it out to be that anyone can be special, while others are like, no, there's certain really famous families and their lineage is special and everyone else can suck it. But in this movie, yes, Luke has the Force, this power he was unaware of that he's trying to learn to control. But he doesn't know that when he commits to joining Kenobi in battle. He doesn't understand the ways it will help him. He is willing to help regardless. He doesn't think he's some superhero. He thinks he's a farm boy.

If Luke hadn't come upon C-3PO and R2-D2, he would have died in his sand hut along with his aunt and uncle. But whether through chance or fate, Luke becomes an accomplice to Obi-Wan Kenobi. And in a battle that has been raging between the rebels and Darth Vader, Luke is a new factor. It is Luke who shot the Death Star right in its little death hole. One man brought down the entire Death Star. That is inspirational. Where are those posters? Like the cats that say "hang in there"? It's just, you too could shoot the one weird design flaw in a giant spaceship. Not as catchy, I guess.

In Spy, Melissa McCarthy thought she was never meant to go into the field. She left those dreams behind when Jude Law kind of suckered her into being his helper on the ground. But it is her immense knowledge of what is happening, of the politics at play, of the nuclear situation that makes her such an asset when she does get to go undercover. When all of the CIA's agents have been compromised, they don't know what to do. And Melissa steps up. Her experiences, her knowledge — that's just as valuable as the people who the CIA had deemed more worthy of the field than her.

She knows she hasn't been trained in ten years. Allison Janney is like, I would send you for training, but we gotta get going. She hasn't shot a gun in a decade, but she is willing to go out and do this. And because she does, she's in the right place at the right time to thwart Bobby Cannavale's evil nuke plans. She follows him, jumps onto his plane, pulls the nuke out, drops it in the ocean with a whole lot of diamonds. That is her. That is her doing something. Making a difference.

What I really appreciate in these films is that they emphasize the power you have as an individual, but they also show how important it is to not just be, but to feel supported. Luke and Melissa become involved with people very different from them, which helps expand their horizons and allows them to grow further confidence in themselves.

When you're around the same people all the time that all see you the same way, you can become stuck in that view of yourself. Meeting new people, expanding your horizons, can allow you to see yourself in new ways. Uncle Owen and Jude Law kept telling Luke and Melissa that they belonged where they were, that they shouldn't branch out, that they were meant only for one life — a life under the radar.

But then we meet Han Solo and Jason Statham — two men who are aggressors, very different from the mild-mannered temperaments of Luke Skywalker and Melissa McCarthy. And they complement those temperaments so well, bringing out more sides of one another and ultimately being one of the most important bonds in each film. Han and Jason show the normally controlled and rule-following Luke and Melissa that there are other ways to be, that they don't have to stay confined to what they've been taught is right — that sometimes they can go with their guts and just trust in themselves.

Chewbacca and Miranda Hart are supportive individuals who are stalwart, who can reach things on high shelves, and who will never flee, who will always be there doing their best, whatever that may be.

What Spy Does Better

Spy doesn't have a version of Leia because Melissa herself is both Luke and Leia. So let's get into that.

Star Wars — incredible movie. I cannot overstate its importance in culture. But Star Wars should be about Princess Leia. Luke is such a nothing in the context of this first film. Whereas Spy finally gave us a movie about the side character that we've wanted a movie about, expanded something that we haven't gotten to see.

When Star Wars opens and we see some robots whining and then we see the utter coolness of Princess Leia, I was like, wow, how dare they peddle this as Luke's story. Even as Han's story — Leia is the story. Luke is the most like the viewer perhaps, but he is hollow. He is half of a person and we see the beginnings of him becoming whole. But in this movie, really, he's just kind of a generic protagonist. He follows the rules, but now he's going to get cool.

Melissa in Spy lets other people walk all over her, but she's smart and she's passionate and all these things that add up to a real person — a real person who becomes a hero. She is both Luke and Leia.

She wants to impress herself. She does what needs to be done because she knows she's the person who must do it. And there's humanity and there's heart. We know her without actually having met her. We understand her.

What helps with that is the way the viewer interacts with the characters of Spy. I felt much more privy to their thoughts — between the mumbled rants from Melissa McCarthy about how other people see her every time she's given a new undercover persona, to how Rose Byrne smiles softly at Melissa as she's shoved into the back of a CIA cop car. We are given pieces of information about these people that flesh out the world and tell us who they are without them needing to spell it out.

What I wish from Star Wars that I loved in Spy is having some genuine self-reflection. With Luke, we really don't get his interior life. We mostly see him as others see him. Whereas with Melissa McCarthy, we can see her internal struggle so clearly. Star Wars has a bevy of interesting characters that we grow with over the course of 80 more movies, but Luke himself is someone we don't know much about in the first film. So much of him is hidden — to be unveiled later. Some of it known to George Lucas at the time, some of it not. We don't know his struggles. We don't know anything besides he's an insolent, bored, sullen teen. Is he 40? Is he 15? Apparently he's 18, but I don't buy it.

It's hard to view this first Star War on its own, not as a setup for greater things. And clearly on its own it did make quite an impact, winning a ton of Oscars for the world that it built. But these characters become so much more than what we see in this first film. The first Star Wars lays the building blocks beautifully — but for me doesn't stand on its own as a particularly great exploration of any of its characters besides Leia, whose tenacity and grace can be witnessed from moment one.

Perhaps these characters feel like stereotypes because they built the world — they influenced the world that we now pull our stereotypes from. But the rogue smuggler Harrison Ford is tired. I get it, he's cooler than everyone. He can't tell anyone he loves them. I get it. I don't get depth from this.

What is fantastic about Spy is that it takes a character who would be in the background in another film and explores her thoughts and feelings. We see how she reacts to how others see her — the constant positioning of her as a divorcee, a cat lover, Jude Law buying her the least sexy necklace of all time, a really mean little cupcake charm on a chain. We see her disappointment in these things so clearly. We see the way she tries to mask her hurt, the way she wants to be known for who she is instead of some sad stereotype people want to pin on her.

We see another side of our villain Rose Byrne. We know her father wanted a son and she tried her hardest to live up to his expectations and take on a more traditionally masculine role. She's a broken girl with a Bulgarian clown for a mother at the end of the day. We see vulnerability from Jason Statham — a man constantly throwing himself into things and shaking himself off when it doesn't go right. There's something about Melissa that brings out the best in him.

The approach of Luke and Melissa is also very different. Luke has questions about his past but not questions about his future. Whereas Melissa's whole world is thrown into a tailspin as she doesn't know who she can trust.

In Star Wars, Luke Skywalker is given the benefit of a clear path. He bumps into Ben Kenobi and follows him into battle. Once he's on board the Death Star, he comes into his own, gets Han motivated to help him save Leia. He doesn't worry a lot about consequence. He's just following what he believes has been set out for him.

In Spy, Melissa isn't given an easy path. No one wants her to do what she does, really. She has to convince them she can go into the field. She takes her choice to leap into action seriously — she knows the risks, but feels like she owes it to Jude Law. Once she's in the field, she realizes what an important force she is. She can't follow the rules. She has to make up her own path because everything the CIA has been trained in has been thrown out the window when they've all been compromised. There's not someone above her giving her orders. There's not a ghost voice whispering in her ear to trust the Force. She has to do what she thinks is right and see how it all plays out from there.

I hope you will give Spy a chance if you haven't seen it. I feel like everyone has just secretly seen it and isn't talking about it. It is a really good movie. As is Star Wars — look, I'm going to start revisiting all the other Star Warses now.

Hit me up at @tastelesspod if you want to talk about Rose Byrne, Spy 2, or Princess Leia. I bet someone out there has a hologram of Princess Leia. Like someone has built themselves their own R2-D2 that plays a hologram. I'm going to look into that.

Back In Business: John Wick vs Stick It

Two movies about the best in their field coming out of retirement — it's John Wick vs Stick It.

Episode Transcript & Breakdown

Every episode of Tasteless, I take a critically acclaimed film and compare it to one that shares the same themes but didn't get the attention it deserves — and explain why that second movie is my pick. This week: two movies about the best in their field coming out of retirement. It's John Wick versus Stick It.

John Wick

John Wick is a former hitman grieving the loss of his true love. When his home is broken into, robbed, and his dog killed, he is forced to return to action to exact revenge.

This movie came out in 2014 and has an 86% on Rotten Tomatoes. I cannot believe it came out seven years ago. It feels like I just saw this in theaters.

Keanu Reeves plays John Wick and this is the perfect role for him. It brought him back into the spotlight as being just an all-around good guy. I only hear wonderful things about Keanu. And I shouldn't be surprised, since even Sandra Bullock had a crush on him. I spoke about his many charitable acts in The Matrix episode, but I just want to reiterate that he is always looking out for other people wherever he can, especially below-the-line crew members — the people that aren't the face, the actor, the director, the writer. The people that are making it all happen behind the scenes. The stunt people.

And that's why he is involved in this John Wick trilogy. He had such a good relationship with the stunt people on The Matrix and they wanted to utilize him for this series of movies that basically revitalized his career. So that is some good karma right there.

I saw John Wick in theaters just as something to do. I went with friends, back when that was allowed, we could have fun, I could see movies. And I was really impressed by it as an action movie that does pack a punch. It doesn't actually have that much story, but it's still affecting. A lot of that success is due to its directors who are two stunt people — perhaps the profession I'm most fascinated by. Chad Stahelski and David Leitch co-directed and co-produced it. They also directed Atomic Blonde, which I love. Chad was Keanu Reeves' stunt double in the Matrix movies. These guys believe in practical effects, real action instead of green screen, and that makes all the difference.

Keanu Reeves talks about how the stunts and fights are built out around what the actors can do, that there's so much training. Zoe Bell touched on this in the Strong Female Leads episode — something I had never thought about until she said it and haven't stopped thinking about whenever I watch an action movie: the stunt double needs to capture the physicality of the actor, the specific way that people move, how they do things. By figuring out exactly what Keanu Reeves can do and carrying that through, it makes for an excellent flow to the movie, something really natural that feels real.

Even the subtitles in this movie — there's a lot of people speaking Russian, so there are built-in subtitles — have a choreographed movement to them, the way they enter and exit the screen. Every element of this film was really thought out by two people who know what they're doing.

Bridget Moynahan plays John Wick's wife — yes, of course, Bridget of classic film Coyote Ugly. She sees the best of him. She doesn't know who he was before, his assassin life. Bridget elected not to read the whole screenplay as it might have colored her view of John Wick outside of her marriage to the character. We mostly see Bridget in a specific clip that John keeps on his cell phone — a video he took of them on the beach where he's filming her and talking about how beautiful she is and then he turns the camera around and films them kissing. She's sick, she dies, so he just watches this clip all the time.

The thought of John Wick selfie-filming him and his wife kissing is the least believable part of this movie. I believe every other element except for this man deciding to take a video of his wife while saying how beautiful she is and then turning the camera around to catch them kissing. Don't buy it.

Most important element of this film: the dog. The beagle puppy. The beagle puppy is given to John Wick by Bridget Moynahan after she dies because she knew she was dying — she arranged for the dog to be delivered to him. In her life she always wore a daisy necklace that John had given her. So the dog has a matching daisy collar and of course he calls her Daisy. He sees Daisy as a link to the woman he loved so much.

He's clearly not been an animal person before — he's always been out for himself until he met his wife. But I love the moment where he's had the dog sleep on the floor on a blanket. He's not a monster. Dog sleeps on the floor, he sleeps in the bed. He wakes up to the dog kissing him. And the next night he looks at the dog who's laying on the blanket and he's like, all right, you can sleep in the bed. And the dog gets in the bed with him.

Seeing a beagle puppy kiss Keanu Reeves is so special. Forget about rom-coms. I want a genre of movies, a series of films, where hot guys love puppies and kittens. Imagine Chris Hemsworth with a kitten just lightly licking his beard. Imagine Paul Rudd touching his forehead to the forehead of one of those really wrinkly dogs. I'm going to make these movies.

In the trivia, it says they covered his face with bacon grease. I want men covered in bacon grease on their faces getting little kisses from baby animals. Baby chicks — bring some baby chicks in there. This needs to happen. It's a billion-dollar idea.

Now we've got to talk about the sad part. Usually if an animal is killed in a movie, it will knock the movie down a few pegs for me. I can't handle it. It really often feels unnecessary or emotionally manipulative. But as awful as it is to see Daisy the beagle puppy splayed out, to watch Keanu hold her lifeless body — it's an important part of the film. Seeing Keanu wake up from being knocked out and the bad guys who have broken in have put the corpse of his beagle puppy next to him is gut-wrenching. And then for him to take Daisy's collar and put it next to his wife's daisy necklace on his bedside table. It's so upsetting.

We see the importance of what Daisy did for him. At the very end of the film, John breaks into a vet's office to basically patch himself up and he steals a dog — don't steal dogs — but he takes a dog with him because he has been opened up to that love again. This movie did something differently, and the reason the death of Daisy was earned or justified is that I felt the death was properly honored. It meant something to the viewer and to John Wick throughout the film. It wasn't just something to move us from point A to point B. It really continued to have an impact.

The person who orchestrates the killing of John Wick's dog is Alfie Allen — maybe the only person who had a very famous song about them and then later became famous. He was great on Game of Thrones and he's really good in this as a jerk. He has a very punchable face and that's why he was cast. When he first meets John Wick, he doesn't even know who John is. He just sees him in a gas station with a really cool car. He wants the car and is mad when John doesn't capitulate. So later he and his goons break into John's home, beat him senseless, kill his dog, and take his car.

It turns out Alfie is the son of a Russian mob boss played by Michael Nyqvist. His name is Viggo, he's head of everything. And he's like, oh my God, why did you kill John Wick's dog days after his wife died? You idiot. And then he punches his son so hard that his son barfs. Why do all movies have barf? I'm so sick of it. I'm just trying to live. Everybody's barfing.

So this is the plot — the actual what's happening. But then we get the action, the action of John Wick going on an all-out rampage to kill Alfie and anyone who gets in his way. Stellar fight sequences. Keanu does a lot of his own stunts. I think that's why this is a movie that should be watched at least once — even if you don't think you're a big action movie person, there's a beauty in how well choreographed the movie is and the interesting settings the fights take place in. In addition to the usual action movie fare of rainy alleys and dark warehouses, we have this insane dance club slash bathhouse sequence. Why is there a bathhouse in a club? Imagine how steamy it is.

Important to note that one of Viggo's henchmen is Dean Winters, aka Mayhem from the Allstate commercials, aka Dummy from 30 Rock, aka Brian from SVU. What a career that man has. Adrianne Palicki plays an assassin named Miss Perkins who comes after John — he gets a bounty put on his head by Viggo, who's just trying to protect his son. She has some amazing fight scenes with John. Unsurprisingly — this being the Tasteless podcast — I was a little frustrated by how many men we watch fight, but Adrianne's scenes almost make up for it. I also appreciate that the guys that made this made Atomic Blonde, so I don't think I can really come down on them too hard for that here.

Stick It

After a run-in with the law, Haley is forced to return to the world from which she fled years ago. Enrolled in an elite gymnastics program run by the legendary Burt Vickerman, Haley's rebellious attitude slowly gives way to a team spirit.

Haley is played by Missy Peregrym. Her as Haley — Missy as Haley — is one of the best performances ever. It's so good. She's so perfect. Her facial expressions, the ponytail that I'm immensely jealous of. There's a Jim Carrey delivery to her — there's voiceover and she's always a little bit snarky. At one point she's talking about how if you're in gymnastics you better like falling because you're going to fall a lot, and she says something along the lines of, good thing I didn't like falling. I loved it. Very Jim Carrey funny.

There's a lot of physical comedy from her — she's jumping around — and I don't get to see this sort of comedy from women as often as from men. I think she's allowed to exist in this space where what a movie typically wants a teen girl to be hasn't been applied to her as rigorously, in a way that makes her so much more real. She's just goofy.

Stick It is really something special. They sort of played around with gender, with expectation. Just allowed this person to be a person. Haley is annoying at first — she's an angry teenager — but you get to know her. She's a goof. She's super goofy. She is really passionate about what she's passionate about, she loves her friends. I think this is such a great character, and it's shocking to me that we didn't get sequels, a series.

By the way, Jessica Bendinger wrote and directed this movie. She also wrote Bring It On, one of my all-time favorite movies.

Stick It, the world of it, this character, this rebel — it's so fun. I put it on and thought, I wonder if this is going to hold up. Within 15 minutes I was so in. I cried at multiple points. It's a feel-good movie, it's a funny movie.

We open up with kids doing BMX. Someone has their head covered by a hood and they do some sick tricks, and then they take their hood off and it's Haley and you're like, oh my God, a girl. Here's the thing — in a movie, if the girl has a sweatband on her wrist, even though I am maybe the opposite of athletic, whatever girl in the movie has a sweatband on her wrist, I know they're going to be my new role model.

This role was written well, for sure. I like the story, the intensity, the goofiness. But it wouldn't have worked with an actor who isn't as charismatic as Missy is. Missy is the heart and soul of this movie. As the viewer grows to understand her and care for her, it makes the emotional moments later on more striking. Seeing the worst of her — the impetuousness, the attitude, the rudeness — you learn quickly that it's her armor, how she has protected herself when she was so emotionally raw. And seeing her begin to trust people again, trust the other women she's practicing with, is all the more meaningful.

I rewatched this at 10 a.m. on a Saturday. Cried multiple times. There is a scene where Haley is on a balance beam and she's flipped upside down and one tear drops onto the balance beam, and the way Jeff Bridges looks at her with such compassion.

Let's talk Jeff. Jeff Bridges — as I said a couple of weeks ago in the True Grit versus Seed of Chucky episode — this is his best role. It's the truth. In what other movie can you watch Jeff Bridges jump on a trampoline? His mentor relationship with Haley is really fascinating. At one point he calls her Miss Rebel Without Applause. Get it? I thought that was so good.

Jeff Bridges as her coach, Burt Vickerman — he runs this gymnastics academy where she has been sent instead of juvie. He tells her nobody cares what she does. That is a hard dose of reality and one of the elements of this movie I appreciated, one of the elements that felt real. Haley, like all of us, wants someone to care. Wants someone to look out for what's best for her, as her parents clearly aren't interested.

She does that thing of — okay, when I was a kid, I would tell my parents, I'm running away from home. And I'd go outside — my dad had a truck with a cap on the bed — and I would climb in, really dramatically, I'd pack up all my stuff, I'd go outside, I'd climb in and then I'd hide there and wait. I'd lay there and get more and more bored and wait because I'd think, oh my God, my parents are going to come flying out of the house so worried about me. Where could I have gone? And after what felt like hours but was probably 15 minutes, I would go back inside because I'd be so bored and no one would have even noticed. Or probably they did notice and they knew exactly where I was and they were letting me sulk out there. But there was no reaction and it did not satisfy my need to make a point.

That's Haley in this movie. She's like, guess what Jeff Bridges, I'm going to walk away. And Jeff tells her the most hurtful thing he could tell her, which is: okay, bye. What do I care? And she doesn't know what to do with that. But he grows to care for her. He appreciates her determination, the way she encourages the other girls to have confidence in themselves. He sees that and he grows fond of her. Also, Jeff Bridges is very hot in this movie.

Some of the other gymnasts at this academy: we have Joanne, who's the mean one, played by Vanessa Lengies — very by the book, teacher's pet, clashes with the freewheeling Haley. Nikki SooHoo is Wei Wei, who loves modern music and wishes she could incorporate it into her routines — she's intrigued by Haley. As is Mina, played by Maddy Curley. These two girls welcome Haley and her jokes into the fold pretty quickly and become closer with her as the film goes on. Maddy is a real gymnast herself — she wrote, produced, and stars in Chalk It Up, another gymnastics movie. Haley's rival, Trisha — a girl she left behind when she walked out of a competition — is played by Tarah Paige, who is also a world-class gymnast and stuntwoman.

John Patrick Amedori and Kellan Lutz play Haley's BMX buddies. John just so happens to have been the young romantic interest of Emma Caulfield in Timer, another of my all-time favorite movies. In this movie he and Kellan are best buds. They come to visit Haley when she's at the gymnastics school. They try to break her out, and eventually take her and some of the other gymnasts to the mall for a fun field trip. While there, the guys and the girls put on dresses and do gymnastics moves and flips throughout the mall. And it's not even played as a joke, like, ha ha, men in dresses. It's like, look at this group of people having a really good time.

John and Joanne are kind of flirting. And John says to Joanne — by the way, John's character's name is Poot, I'm not saying that — he says, you're going to have to wear a tux, because he's wearing a dress. And she kind of looks at him and he goes, we can both wear dresses. Very matter of fact. And later, when he's flirting with Joanne again and Kellan Lutz points out that she's not very nice — she's the mean girl — it hurts her feelings. And John says, who cares what he thinks about you? He's gay. And again, it's not for laughs. It's just like, look, he's not into you. I am. So who cares about him? He can go elsewhere. Also, both of these men look very good in dresses. Full-on prom dresses.

Kellan, by the way — Emmett Cullen in the Twilight series, but also one of the young actors along with Malin Akerman in The Comeback of Lisa Kudrow. What I love about these two guys is yeah, they want Haley's attention, but there's not a shoehorned romantic plot with Haley herself.

Like Birds of Prey, this movie feels like another example of the female gaze versus male gaze. And I think it's so funny — I went to the Letterboxd for this movie and I knew what I would find.

There's a scene where Haley lowers herself into an ice bath wearing a sports bra and you just see her abs, which are out of this world. If you go to Letterboxd for Stick It and look at the top reviews: Lucy says, holds the bronze medal in my movies-that-made-me-gay list. Marion says, this movie invented not only cinema but also lesbians. Indy says, shout out to Stick It for inventing abs and being gay.

There's something about this movie that struck a chord with women. It was a different view. Khaos says, I can't believe they let the lead be so sporty butch and not have a male love interest. And her guy friend whom I thought the plot was going to set her up with ended up being gay. We're so blessed. Yes — this movie really subverts expectations. It portrays Haley not as this object of desire, although obviously she's gorgeous, but as this really strong, talented human being. I appreciate that. This movie was written and directed by a woman. And so there are all these interesting elements — the way these women come together.

In gymnastics there are a lot of rules — a lot of old-school rules, a lot of stupid rules. You could do 18 flips, but if you land and your toes aren't pointed enough, you lose points. Ridiculous little things that really have nothing to do with the incredible skill on display. One of the girls from Haley's gymnastics school, when they're at this big competition, lands a trick perfectly and everyone is blown away. She gets points deducted because you could see her bra strap. And Jeff Bridges is like, what are you talking about? You can see her bra straps? She just flipped through the air.

Then Haley goes up next. She's standing at one end, getting ready to start her run and vault. Before starting her run, she reaches under her shirt, pulls out both bra straps, makes them very visible, struts down the mat — and scratches. Meaning she touches the vault. Once you touch it, you're in your trick. She touches it, removes her hand, gets all zeros.

And slowly, every other girl does the same thing.

I started crying. Because they knew that Mina should win. Mina did an incredible move. So because they all scratched, she won by default — she was the only one that scored any points. And the women get together and they say, oh my God, we've been under the thumb of these judges. We can control the outcome. We can choose who should win.

Yeah, the girls are catty. Joanne is catty. But when they come together to enact this plan, I love that they immediately know who the best girl is. They're like, yeah, this person's best at this, Wei Wei should win beam, this person should win this. Obviously they've seen them perform, they're incredible. They cheer them on. When the person winning — who is not from Jeff Bridges' gymnastics school — is performing, him and Missy are high-fiving, just proud of this girl for doing her routines so incredibly.

We get to see people do what they're good at, what they love, as a showcase instead of a competition. Wei Wei doing her moves on the beam is such a great moment of just letting go and doing what she wants to do. There's some really good editing — a moment where we see all these people doing their routines at once in this really cool kaleidoscope pattern. The soundtrack is incredible. This movie has fun opening credits. It has everything.

It's only on DVD. It's not on Blu-ray, which makes me furious. But I highly recommend renting it. Or just buying it. Just own a movie, you freaks.

Shared Themes

Our protagonist in each film has given up their career, given up what they excelled at, retired from the game. But both are forced out of retirement through surprising circumstances when someone else forces their hand.

John Wick has the misfortune of being at the gas station at the same time as Alfie Allen. John has fully escaped his past as an assassin. He lives a beautiful life in a beautiful home until his wife gets sick. But this day, with the dog his dead wife gifted to him, he comes upon Alfie, the son of John's former boss. Alfie sees John's nice car and wants it. When he tries to intimidate John, John holds his ground — he still has that element of his former life. But then Alfie breaks in, steals his car, kills his dog, setting off a journey of bloodshed.

When John has the last thing in this world he loves taken from him, he has nothing to lose. He rejoins the world he had worked so hard to escape. He calls up his old contacts, breaks the concrete in his weird shed, gets out his weapons and his gold coins, and re-emerges as the boogeyman the rest of the underworld thought they were safe from. To accomplish his goals, he must be the best, so he has to lean into this persona he thought he had shed — making you wonder if he had ever really, or could ever really, escape that part of himself.

In Stick It, Haley was a gymnast at the Olympics, one of the best in the world, known for her raw talent. Then she walked out and became a pariah to the rest of the gymnastics world. As she says, when you walk out on Worlds as part of Team USA, it's not personal — it's national. In her quest to feel in control of her own life again, after years of being obedient to the whims of her coach, she gets caught up in some BMX-versus-skateboard show-offing and has to go before a judge for the property damage she causes riding her bike through a glass door. Instead of juvie, the judge sends her to an intense gymnastics training center where she must relearn the skills she had put behind her.

Faced with the possibility of regaining what had once been such a large part of her life, Haley is torn but can't help but become invested in the outcome of her performance. She wants to be good. She wants other people to respect her.

It's not just a surprise that John Wick and Haley picked back up where they had left off — it's a big deal to others in their field, because John and Haley are the best. Fables used to warn others. People that are whispered about. Both had a good reason for leaving what they were so enmeshed with — assassinating and gymnastics — reasons that others in their field didn't understand, especially because they were at the top of their game.

John clearly wanted to be with his wife. We don't know how he got into the business of assassinations, but we know he wanted to keep his wife safe and clearly did whatever he needed to do to be allowed to leave the criminal world with no bad blood. Mob boss Viggo refers to John not just as a boogeyman, but as the person you send to kill the boogeyman. He is revered, and those who know him understand how dangerous he is. Viggo speaks with awe of the task he gave John to earn his freedom and how it was impossible, but John did it. So Viggo sets a price on John's head to protect his son. He gathers all the guards and forces he can to try to stave off John's attack. He protects Alfie — it's his kid. But when all the guards are killed, all he can do when John comes for Alfie is thank him for giving his son a quick death. He knew in his heart of hearts this would be how it ended. Others in the field fear and respect John, so their surprise when he left turns to confusion and terror when he comes back. No one wants to be up against this man.

In Stick It, right before she was about to take her turn as part of Team USA, Haley discovered that her mother was cheating on her father with Haley's coach. So Haley walked out, abandoning the competition and her teammates. No one knew this backstory besides her and her awful parents, so everyone believed she was just a failure, that she choked, that she left her team, that she didn't care about them or their success. She was so shocked by what she had discovered and she couldn't go on representing her coach, the man who destroyed her parents' marriage and her family.

When she is forced to return to gymnastics, the other girls are mean at first, but they do recognize her talent and they whisper about it. Everyone knows her name and they watch her begin to regain her abilities quickly as she is an undeniable natural. People talk about her. They don't want her fate to happen to them, but they are also jealous of her skill — she is so good and so sure of herself in a world where these women are in need of structure. She is a trailblazer.

John and Haley are topics of conversation, people you'd hope to never face off against, but whom you can't help but respect if you do. Our two characters have been seen as larger than life, but as we watch them, we gain respect for them because they stick by their convictions. John is always polite and Haley is always rebellious — and neither compromises who they are.

That's what makes a good fable — someone whose code you know.

In John Wick, John is feared by those who know him, but he's also friendly with many because they know he will not come after them without reason. He doesn't have ego about what he does. It's only the death of his love that leads him to a state bad enough to re-engage with this world. And even then he's careful about how he approaches it. He doesn't want any unnecessary bloodshed, he's trying to achieve a goal. Where appropriate, he allows people to escape.

In Stick It, Haley is known for her punk rock approach ever since she went off the rails. In the beginning of her gymnastics career, she did exactly as she was told. That aspect of the sport made her uncomfortable with the activity and with herself. So when she rejoins, she's careful to remain true to who she has become, who she has allowed herself to be, while also respecting the people around her. And they see that and there's something about it that draws them to her. Missy Peregrym's charisma is off the charts, but there is something about her where you know she's not going to talk about you behind your back. She is honest, she is clear, she is loyal. You see that about her. It's clear who she is and you can take it or leave it.

What Stick It Does Better

I love John Wick. I think it's a great action movie. But let's talk about a few things I think Stick It excelled in — reasons, if you're only going to watch one movie tonight, to watch Stick It instead of John Wick.

The world of John Wick is just as regimented as the world of gymnastics, but everyone breaks those rules besides John himself, whereas Haley's rebellious streak allows her more freedom in making the right choices.

John works within the systems of the underworld he was once part of. He doesn't stray from the rules set out for him in this first movie, even as other assassins break the rules when offered enough money. The story of John Wick is about him and his life, but it's also an interesting world-building tale of this organization of assassins, of the code that they have built, of the laws that they live by. At the Continental, the hotel where John goes to get his murder business done — a hotel for assassins — certain rules must be followed, and John is very careful. Other people like Miss Perkins are willing to go against their code to kill him, and Viggo doesn't care how it gets done and will pay more if the assassin must break the code. That puts John at a disadvantage.

I like that he has a code. But it seems odd that in this world of murder, of betrayal, when all he wants is vengeance for the last thing he loves in this world being taken from him — he is so tied to doing things the right way. It makes his approach almost clinical. It's odd that he's able to take his emotion out enough that he still needs to — I gotta give my little gold coin. I can't do business in this room. I can't. It's self-preservation, yes, and I enjoy this world being built. But in Stick It, Haley rebels against people she feels are trying to control her, against the system she believes is unfair, and she exploits that system, using it against the judges.

She had always followed the rules before, but she is broken out of that mindset and has realized people are more important than rules. She regrets being obedient to a man she didn't respect who didn't respect her. With Jeff Bridges, she finally is able to gain respect as a person and not a perfect little robot doing as she's told. And this is an important part of her journey of self-discovery and it's what allows her to look out for others and not just herself. She's so at peace with who she is. She's willing to break rules that she doesn't think are fair.

John returns to old relationships as he reverts to who he was when he worked for the Russian mob — becoming that man he had been. While Haley is figuring out who she is and making new friends based on that evolution. John is killing those he used to work for, but he's still following a certain set of rules and expectations, regressing to the John Wick before Bridget Moynahan. While Haley is something new, something stronger, as she overcomes the hurt she felt at the last competition, comes to terms with it, and moves beyond it.

Because of their different approaches, John and Haley garner different outcomes. John is avenging his dog and the memory of his wife, but he is unconcerned with anyone outside his family. At the end of the day, he gets his revenge, he gets a new puppy, and a new sense of hope in some small way. But everything else remains the same.

Haley takes her anger, takes her grit and her ability to lead and influence others, and she uses it to change what's wrong about the environment she was broken down in. She makes things better for everyone, not just herself.

John Wick is not passionate about murder — obviously, that's fine, that's good. But even though he's avenging his loved ones, he's not super concerned with other people. He didn't kill Miss Perkins — he leaves her in the care of another hotel guest, but then she kills that guy. John left this life because he wanted peace with his family, but he doesn't really care what happens to other people still engaged in this world. He plays within the rules — the gold coins, the hotel — but anything else happening is not his concern. Whether people follow the rules, whoever fills the spot that the Russian mob leader leaves when Viggo is killed, who's going to take that over? Whatever comes next is not something John cares about because he doesn't want to be part of this world.

Haley is selfish at first. She has bad parents. She went through something awful and she's a teenager. She's only looking out for herself. At one point when she first comes to the academy, Jeff Bridges makes the other girls run and says they're going to have to keep running until Haley joins them. She refuses. So they lock her out of the house. Rightly so.

But as Haley becomes re-engaged in this world, as she befriends the other gymnasts and supports them in their routines, she realizes that there is passion here, that these people aren't dumb for loving this, that they don't deserve to have their incredible skills negated by ridiculous rules from a million years ago. So instead of trying to win a gold medal for herself, she works to change the system they are a part of.

They realize they can finally have control over what's happening. The girls scratch — purposefully get themselves out after selecting who's best at what — and they allow that girl to perform her routine to the fullest, and she wins. The judges can't say this person with the worst routine wins because she moved her arm to the right side when she landed. These dumb little technicalities. Finally these girls who have been following highly regimented sets of rules — they have choice. They have freedom. And they choose to support one another. They choose to uplift one another. They choose to say, I know this other girl is talented, and we need to watch her, and we need to respect that talent.

One of the other girls, Trisha — the girl Haley had walked out on — refuses to play along and competes her hardest instead of scratching. And Haley realizes, look, we've still made our point. We have shown this crowd that we do still have control and that the judging is absurd. Haley is looking out for other people, not just herself. That's why she ends this movie in a state of peace. She has evolved. She is happy with who she is and who she's becoming. She's building a better life for herself.

And John Wick — yeah, he has the dog. I'm really happy that he got a new dog. But are you just — you went and killed all these people? What are you going to do? You're just going to go back home and sit in your nice house? What's your plan? I mean, of course there's John Wick 2 and 3. But we're talking about 1.

I hope you will give Stick It a try. I love it. I really do. I think Missy Peregrym is one of the best casting moments of all time. One of the best sets of abs of all time.

Hit me up at @tastelesspod on social media if you want to talk about Missy Peregrym being severely underrated, or how many times you cried while watching Stick It.

Shades of Grey: Saving Private Ryan vs Birds of Prey

Two movies about morality outside the bounds of polite society and banding together — it's Saving Private Ryan vs Birds of Prey (and the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn)

Episode Transcript & Breakdown

Every episode of Tasteless, I take a critically acclaimed film and compare it to one that shares the same themes but didn't get the attention it deserves — and explain why that second movie is my pick. This week: two movies about morality outside the bounds of polite society and banding together. It's Saving Private Ryan versus Birds of Prey and the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn. I will say the full name only once, thank you.

Saving Private Ryan

Following the Normandy Landings, a group of U.S. soldiers go behind enemy lines to retrieve a paratrooper whose comrades have been killed in action.

This movie came out in 1998, has a 93% on Rotten Tomatoes, and is number 26 on the top-rated movies of all time. It won five Oscars — Best Director for Steven Spielberg, Best Sound, Best Cinematography, Best Film Editing, Best Sound Effects Editing. It was nominated for another six that it didn't win, including Best Picture, Best Actor for Tom Hanks, and Best Music for John Williams.

This movie kicks off with too many barfs. One of my only problems with movies: animals being hurt, barfs. Those are the things I don't like in a film. But I can't blame these guys — they are in an old-timey boat going to shore to do battle. They're barfing all over the place. Hate it.

I had seen this movie a couple of years ago and really didn't internalize a lot of it. Didn't really think about it again. But on rewatching, I was really struck. When I started it and saw it was almost three hours, I was kind of like, ugh, God, another one of these. But the first 25 minutes or so of the landing on Omaha Beach, the Normandy landing — the brutality really comes through on the screen.

A guy loses his arm — he has viscera on his sleeve hanging off, and he kind of bends over and picks up the arm and stands up and trudges off holding his arm. There's the guy that Tom Hanks is dragging and then he realizes it's only half a body — he only got his top half. He thought he was saving this guy, but he only got his top half. There's the guy who gets shot on his helmet — a bullet pings off the side, and he's like, oh my God, I just got shot but I'm okay. So he takes off his helmet to look at it, like, wow, this just saved my life. While looking at it, he gets shot in the head and dies.

Some guy is laying there with his guts hanging out and he's like, mama, mama. I mean, not like that at all. I feel like if my guts were hanging out, I would definitely be yelling for my cat. But here's the thing — the indignity of not only having your intestines outside your body, but having sand get into your intestines. Just awful.

It's just 25 minutes of relentless, unflinching war. It's not Michael Bay action-y. It's not bright red blood. It's real in this way that is striking and I was very impressed by.

The conceit of this movie is that a secretary realizes that three brothers have died in three different conflicts — three brothers, last name Ryan. And the army is basically like, God, we have to tell this mother that three of her sons are dead, but there's still one brother left alive. He paratrooped in somewhere but they lost track — something went wrong with the landing, so no one knows where he is. The army's like, okay, we have to get the other Ryan brother. Private Ryan. Save him, Private Ryan. We have to bring him home to his mother so that we don't tell her every single one of her four sons have died.

Now, I think in real life at this point, knowing our government, it would be more like — we better kill that mom so she doesn't tell anyone that the army killed all four of her children. But in this movie they are going to go rescue James Ryan.

Tom Hanks is the leader. He is in charge of the band of men that go to save Private Ryan. His name is Miller, and he's this kind of tough guy. I've talked about this before — I don't dislike Tom Hanks, I like him, he seems like a nice man, I'll watch his movies. I am never like, oh my God, what incredible acting, the way that I am when I watch Rebecca Hall or Christian Bale, who even when I don't love his movies or his zaniness, I watch him act and I'm like, wow, he's doing something.

Tom Hanks always plays these mild-mannered guys. There's this bet among the guys under his command about what his job might be, because no one's positive what he did before the war. He finally tells them: I was an English teacher and I love my wife. Which is the epitome of Tom Hanks roles. He's mild-mannered, he does the right thing.

He has seven other people on his team. Tom Sizemore is the second in command and he gets to say the title at one point — he gets to say "saving Private Ryan," so good for him. Edward Burns is the New York guy. Perfectly — that's his thing. I hadn't really realized until recently that he directs and writes movies in addition to acting. No one else is bringing us important New York stories like Edward Burns. He's very much like, hey, I'm Edward Burns. You like pizza? I may need to bump up New York on my list of hot accents. And remember how hot Edward Burns was in 27 Dresses as Katherine Heigl's boss? None of this pertains to Saving Private Ryan.

In Saving Private Ryan, Edward Burns is like, why are eight guys being risked for one guy? He's the most outspoken to Tom Hanks that he doesn't agree with this plan, but at the end of the day he will follow orders. He's like, this is stupid. What are we doing here? Hey, this is stupid. What are we doing here? You like pizza? Just like that.

Maybe most importantly — we forget, or I had forgotten, and I think the world has forgotten because they're rude — that Vin Diesel was in this movie. In fact, his role, Caparzo, was written for him after Steven Spielberg saw Diesel's independent film Strays, which was Vin's directorial, writing, producing, and lead acting debut. I need to watch that movie ASAP.

He is kind of the comedic relief along with Adam Goldberg. They're buddies, they hang out, they're chit-chatty with each other. Vin Diesel does unfortunately die in this movie because he takes a kid when he's not supposed to. He gets shot because he opens himself up to it. He's just laying there bleeding out and it's raining. Who knew we were going to have ten Fast and Furiouses after this? He looks so good in this movie. Vin Diesel has the littlest shadow of hair on his head and it looks incredible. I don't even know if it's painted on.

So Upham the translator — Jeremy Davies plays him. He's this guy who wasn't part of their crew. They were all together when they stormed the beach, but now on this mission to save Ryan, he gets added because he can speak German and French. And he's like, I want to bring my typewriter. He looks like Andrew Garfield.

But here's what's important to talk about with Jeremy Davies. He does cameos — on cameo.com — that are an hour plus each. It is bananas. You get your money's worth. On his Cameo page, he says: I'd redefine grateful if you'd read a letter I wrote to my fans, which you can find on jeremiedavies.com. I need everyone to go to jeremiedavies.com. His letter is titled "A Criminally Misfit Altruistic Inaugural Social Media Mission Statement of Sorts" and is 32 pages long. I am fascinated by this man. I cannot get over it. I'm starting a book club just for this. We're all going to read that 32-page letter and then we're going to get back together and talk about it.

Matt Damon plays Private Ryan. Steven Spielberg cast him because he wanted an unknown actor with an all-American look. But before this movie came out, Matt Damon won the Oscar for Good Will Hunting and became a massive star. So that didn't work out. He's really good in this. He has this scene where he tears up and I started crying watching it. But then he tells this very weird story about his brother making out with a girl in a barn and she runs into a wall and is knocked out, which is not a fun story. And Matt's like, well Tom, what's your story? And Tom's like, I'm going to save my story for me.

Brian Cranston pops up — also very hot with a buzz cut. Paul Giamatti. Nathan Fillion, at one point they think he's Private Ryan but he's a different Private Ryan. Ted Danson is here. Ted Danson, younger and older, looks like a Ken doll in a nice way, but he has a very long rectangular head.

Spoilers for this movie from a thousand years ago that everyone has seen. Tom Hanks dies. And as he's dying, he says to Private Ryan: earn this. That's so much pressure. Imagine someone's dying words to you being earn this. Also, when he's old and he's at the grave of Miller, he turns to his wife and says, tell me I've led a good life. Leave your wife alone. This movie has a few moments like that where it takes something real and heightens it to This Is Us levels — where you feel like they're trying to make you cry rather than trying to tell a story.

Birds Of Prey

After splitting with the Joker, Harley Quinn joins superheroines Black Canary, Huntress, and Renee Montoya to save a young girl from an evil crime lord.

This movie came out in 2020, has a 78%. No Oscars, but one of my favorites of 2020 — top three, maybe top two, maybe top one. This one and Promising Young Woman, both produced by Margot Robbie's production company Lucky Chap. Lucky Chap produced I, Tonya, Terminal, Birds of Prey, Promising Young Woman. They have a Yorgos Lanthimos movie on the slate, they have the Greta Gerwig Barbie movie. This company is making all my dreams come true.

I'm someone who's vaguely familiar with comic books. But when I saw Suicide Squad, I was — horrified is too strong a word. I saw it with a full theater of mostly men and the things they got excited about, the things they cheered for, genuinely upset me. Which sounds so stupid and lame to say, but I remember there's a scene where Harley licks a prison bar and everyone's like, yeah. And I was like, what are we doing here? I think Margot was so incredibly talented, and so I was really bummed by that.

With this movie, she took the character, she took what she knew about it, and she created this incredible super villain/superhero somewhere in between that isn't permeated by the male gaze.

She really spearheaded getting this movie made. In Suicide Squad, she's wearing short shorts, denim short shorts, ripped fishnets. In this movie, she's wearing fully insane clothes that are really fun to look at — full yellow overalls with a pink fishnet halter top. She's obviously beautiful, but nothing about the clothes she's in is sexual. She's dressed in the way she wants to be dressed. She has a specific sense of style. It's very fun.

It's such a good example of male gaze versus female gaze. The only semi-glamorized shot we see of her is her hair in a wind machine blowing back, and that's because she's watching her breakfast sandwich get made that she's so pumped about.

I remember when the movie came out and there were comments on Twitter about how this is the difference between male and female gaze — that we get this almost pornographic exploration of a breakfast sandwich being made, the eggs cracking, but then Harley is wearing overalls. It's such a different take on the genre because I think even when the women in superhero films are strong, there is that inclination to really still make sure men like them. There's none of that in Birds of Prey.

Margot Robbie in this character — I'm so glad we got this movie because she is perfect in this role. You saw that in Suicide Squad. To see her make it her own — she does this accent that's really wonderfully cartoonish, with weird emphasis on some words, like poi-fect. It really captures this surreal vibe. I knew she could act, but this really establishes her as a star. Her charisma is absolutely out of this world. As Harley, it doesn't rely on her being one of the most gorgeous women on the planet. That's not what we're looking at. She plays every element of this movie so loud, with such conviction, but also with emotion. It's never unbelievable.

The costume designer said they were talking about how Harley isn't meant to be an object of desire in this movie, which is on purpose. Erin Benach, the costume designer, said, that's what happens when you have a female producer, director, writer. Robbie added, yeah, it's definitely less male gaze-y. She had discussed how uncomfortable her outfits were for Suicide Squad, so that was altered for this movie.

There's a scene when the sprinklers are going off and she gets soaked and there is nothing sexual about it. The water makes for this really great fight scene. There's nothing wet-t-shirt-contest about it. She's wearing a white t-shirt, but that's not what's happening.

One of my favorite moments: she's hiding from all these guys, prepared to fight them — guys that got out of their jail cells. She is in basically an evidence room at a police station and she realizes she's behind a bunch of bags of cocaine and guys are shooting at it. The cocaine flies up into the air, she looks around, realizes what's happening, and she just inhales. Her eyes go wide and "Black Betty" starts playing. Such a good, fun fight scene song. The whole soundtrack for this movie is really fun. Every element came together into what I want from a superhero movie — bright and colorful and fun.

Rosie Perez plays Detective Renee Montoya. At one point Montoya is investigating a crime scene, looking at four guys that have all been shot by arrows, and it kind of pauses the scene so she can walk around it and replay what was happening. This movie is really innovative in the way it shares information. The story isn't fully linear — it unfolds these different pieces for you. Rosie Perez just gets to be grumpy and great. She's good at her job but she's also not going to play by anyone else's rules. And Renee Montoya the character is the first canonically gay character in either a Marvel or a DC movie. We see her ex-girlfriend, played by Ali Wong, which is cool. It's not a big deal — she's just mad that her ex-girlfriend is there.

Jurnee Smollett plays Dinah Lance, aka Black Canary. She's such a good singer — Jurnee does her own singing. She sings at the club that Roman owns, the Black Mask, our main villain. When he sees her fighting to help Harley get away from some drunk guys, he decides she will be his new driver. She becomes enmeshed in his world of crime but she's letting Montoya know what's going on because she wants to protect the little girl he is after. Her as Black Canary — I want her in more action movies because she is so cool.

Mary Elizabeth Winstead plays Huntress, Helena Bertinelli. What an unsung hero Mary Elizabeth Winstead is. She is so good in so many things. You watch her and you know you're going to get a good performance. She's very funny in a very understated way and she gets to really lean into that in this movie. Her entire family was killed in search of a diamond that holds their riches — all their money is in offshore bank accounts and all the numbers are stored inside a diamond. She has spent her life preparing to avenge them.

You think, wow, the Huntress kills all these people — other people call her the Crossbow Killer — but you realize she stands in a mirror and practices, do you know who I am? Do you know who I am? There's something so real about her. I love when somebody says "a bow and arrow" and she says, it's not a bow and arrow, it's a crossbow. I'm not 12. She's semi-awkward but still so cool and sure of herself in so many ways.

Ella Jay Basco plays Cassandra Cain, the kid who swallows the diamond. She's a little pickpocket. Everyone is trying to either cut it out of her or get it out another way — Harley gives her a whole lot of prune juice, that's not working. They need to protect her from Roman the Black Mask. Ella Jay Basco is a very fun kid in this movie. Everybody's trying to protect her and you're never annoyed. She can handle herself but also is a kid who needs someone to look out for her.

Our villain, the Black Mask, Roman, is played by Ewan McGregor. Before Ewan was cast, Nicolas Cage, Sharlto Copley, and Sam Rockwell were considered. Rockwell passed on the role but was considered the archetype for the casting. As much as I adore him, I'm very happy that Ewan got to flex this weird, dark, comedic, strange, Nicolas Cage energy type muscle in this movie. He is so good in it.

He has all these little idiosyncrasies. He's going to cut the faces off these people. Then he goes, actually, this girl can go. And he takes tape off her mouth. Then he sees a snot bubble in her nose. And he's like, ew, nevermind, cut her face off.

What I love is that he's this male villain who never sexualizes the heroes. There's never a threat of sexual assault. He never looks them up and down. He respects Black Canary as his driver and is devastated when he thinks he's been betrayed. Yes, he wants to own her in the way that she's his singer at his club. But there aren't those elements. He definitely is misogynistic, he definitely doesn't love women, but I liked that there weren't those elements.

Important trivia: Harley suffers a concussion at one point and has a dream of herself singing "Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend." Of course, Ewan McGregor is probably best known for Moulin Rouge, where Nicole Kidman sings "Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend." So he is in both of those, dancing to it. I love it.

Chris Messina plays his right-hand man, Mr. Zsasz — also a really strange, quirky villain I enjoyed. He's sniveling a little bit. At one point Black Canary is late and Ewan McGregor is like, it's fine. And Chris Messina is like, no, you're late. Shouldn't she come back later because she's late? She was late, shouldn't she? He really wants other people to be punished. And Ewan McGregor is like, no man, cool it, it's fine, don't worry about it.

Cathy Yan directed this movie. She is the first Asian woman to direct a superhero movie. She is the second woman to direct a DC film, after Patty Jenkins. She knocks it out of the park. Every element of this film came together for me — the little things that come up on the screen telling you why people are mad at Harley, the way it unfolds, the coloring, all of it. The writer, Christina Hodson, she wrote another movie that has appeared on Tasteless — Unforgettable with Katherine Heigl and Rosario Dawson, which I love. All the pieces in this movie came together. Watching it in a theater was breathtaking.

Shared Themes

Something that sets these two films apart is that their protagonists aren't heroes to everyone. They're people who live in moral shades of gray, who have to do things outside the realm of human decency to survive. And that doesn't make them bad people, doesn't make them good people. It's a much less black-and-white way of looking at things.

In Saving Private Ryan, we are following soldiers in the midst of war. Soldiers are forced to do horrible things to protect not only themselves but their fellow soldiers and their country. Other people's lives are in their hands. The best example of this is Vin Diesel and the little girl. A girl's parents beg the soldiers to take their two children to safety. Tom Hanks screams at his soldiers — no children, we do not take children. They have a mission, they can't take the risk. Vin Diesel defies orders, grabs the kid, and says, sorry, Captain, she reminds me of my niece. I gotta take her, I gotta help her. And he gets shot and bleeds out slowly all over the note he wrote to his dad.

Was taking the kid the moral thing to do, the "right" thing to do? Yeah, probably. But they have a mission. And when Vin takes the girl, he's focused on her, so not only is he endangering his life, he's endangering the lives of the other men he's supposed to be looking out for.

Which leads us to the crux of the movie. Eight men are sent back into battle to save a single man and they feel conflicted about it. Most of them don't think it's worthwhile. Why kill eight men to save one man? They don't think it's right. Private Ryan could already be dead, but they're here alive now and they don't want to put themselves in danger. Many of them do die on the way to rescue Private Ryan, or even when they're with him. But he represents something more — he represents that mother. And Edward Burns is like, I have a mother. We all have mothers who don't want their sons to die. Why is he more important?

Another complicated aspect: Tom Hanks at one point has a POW, a prisoner of war. He sets him free — has him dig graves, then they're like, you can't kill the guy now. He sets him free with a blindfold and a hundred-yard head start. That is the man who kills him. That is the man who later at the bridge shoots him. There was no clear morally correct option in war. There just isn't.

In Birds of Prey, we're exploring the choices of women who have been shafted by the world, who have been put in a box, mistreated, and who are trying to make things right in the only way they can. They don't have the luxury of making the right choice a lot of the time. They've been left to their own devices and need to survive the seedy underbelly of the worlds they've found themselves in.

Harley is an incredibly complicated character. She's not a hero, not even a villain — just a woman who has gotten away with her behavior for a really long time while putting up with disrespect from the Joker. That got her certain perks, people looked the other way. Now she needs to figure out how to stand on her own two feet, which leads to some poor decisions. When she decides to turn in Cassandra — when she's going to give Cassandra over to Roman — it's because she feels like she doesn't have another choice.

We don't judge Black Canary for working as a driver for Roman, or Huntress for murdering vigilante-style the people who killed her family instead of pulling a Spider-Man and tying them up outside a police station. Where the criminal justice system has failed, Huntress has stepped in to make sure these evil men are dealt with. Detective Montoya is working outside the scope of her job to make sure the real bad guy who no one else wants to go after gets what's coming to him. And in the process, she forgets the rules she promised to adhere to as an officer of the law and becomes a vigilante.

Even Cassandra must make bad choices to survive. She picks pockets from people — maybe good people, maybe bad people — to keep herself going as her foster parents fight about keeping her. She is on her own, and since she can't get a job as a kid, she does what she needs to do. Everyone here is operating at the level of survival in both movies, and when they can do the right thing, they try to. But that's not always possible.

The best element of these movies is when our wildly different characters come together and have each other's backs. The protagonists in both films must learn to put the group above the individual.

In Saving Private Ryan, Tom Hanks' team had worked together during their attack on Omaha Beach. When he's told he needs to head up the mission, he gets the same men along with Jeremy Davies the translator and they set out. We've seen these guys in battle together, covering each other. But for those first 25 minutes, we don't see a lot of communication — it's just Tom Hanks giving them orders, which is what battle is. With this new mission, a lot of the men are unhappy. They wonder why their lives aren't as important as Ryan's. They question Tom Hanks, they grumble and gripe. But when they're faced with incredible challenges and not many resources, they learn how to work together.

When they're in that town with the bridge that Ryan refuses to leave because he wants to protect it, the men finally begin sharing personal facts with each other. They set a plan — they're going to destroy the tracks on one of the tanks so it'll block the road and funnel the bad guys in one spot where they can be gunned down. Everyone is working together. They come together in a way that's really incredible. A lot of them wind up dying, but it's not for a lack of trying and being the best they can for each other and for themselves.

In Birds of Prey, our women had been working separately to get the diamond, each after it for their own reasons. But then they find themselves trapped at the theme park in a room, at which point they realize it would be best if they worked together. They each use their individual strengths. Harley does gymnastics. Montoya loves punching. Black Canary is a kicker. Huntress has a crossbow. In conjunction, in the service of one goal — saving Cassandra — they fight off wave after wave of bad guys. They each have their own focus while also looking out for the others. And in saving one another, they know they've got each other's backs. They don't worry that one of them is going to betray the other. That's never a concern. They're like, nope, we're working together. That's it. I know you've got my back. I love that.

Between our soldiers and our sirens, there are such distinct personalities, but you believe — of course they could work together. I see how this works. It wasn't unbelievable.

Saving Private Ryan and Birds of Prey both have troubled characters, but they also share an important message of hope.

The guys in Saving Private Ryan are mad that eight men's lives are being risked for one man. But Tom Hanks, in addition to just wanting to do the job so he can go home, also understands the importance of hope. Ryan represents that. A mother has three dead sons coming home to her. All she has left in this world is Matt Damon. There's something about this mother losing all four children that the head army guys cannot stomach. It's too devastating. One child gives her something, some link.

Ryan's story is one that upsets the people he runs into. Everyone has a similarly somber reaction when they find out three separate brothers have died. We learn the brothers were purposely sent to different areas with different tasks to try to keep something like this from happening. Regardless, getting James Ryan home to his mother means a great deal to morale, to the optics of the war, to this family. While the guys are mad to be sacrificed for one other man, everyone wants this mother to have someone come home to her.

In Birds of Prey, our women are mostly single-minded, working towards a set goal with no plans afterwards. But finding each other, uniting to save Cassandra — it gives them new life. It gives them hope for a better future. Through their protection of Cassandra, they realize they can be better people. They realize that others can rely on them and that they can make connections.

Harley felt bereft with the loss of the Joker. She doesn't know who she is without him. But she's able to define herself, differentiate herself over the course of this film. Instead of mourning her past, she finally becomes excited for her future — making new business cards, starting a new life for herself and Cassandra. And the other women start their own crime-fighting squad, giving themselves a new purpose and a continued bond with the people who understand them best.

What Birds Of Prey Did Better

One big difference in the two films that sets them apart is the importance of having a choice. At the end of the day, the guys in Saving Private Ryan have a duty to their country and are following orders. That carries over into the duty to their fellow soldier — not just the duties they have to those above them, but also to the men they are in this situation with. And of course they grow to care for each other. Of course there's camaraderie in this awful world they're forced to navigate. And that camaraderie isn't made any less meaningful just because it is forced. Most of life is like — you're put with people and then you like them or you don't.

But there's something I love about Birds of Prey having people come together not just because they have to, but because they want to. They want to protect the kid. The women in Birds of Prey make choices for themselves, for the moment, not because someone above them is telling them what they must do. In fact, they're finally getting to make their own choices, especially Harley.

In the world of Saving Private Ryan, at the end of the day, these men have been given orders and they're going to do them. Even when they argue with Tom Hanks — when he's just like, well, it's orders — they're like, all right. And by following these orders, they can take a lot of the blame off themselves. Even Tom Hanks, the head of this contingent, is following the orders of people above him who aren't in the field, who are sitting in their office reading an old Abraham Lincoln letter and bemoaning a mother losing her children.

Tom Hanks makes one call for himself. He agrees to have the men stay to help Ryan's men hold that bridge. And that leads to a lot of them dying. But the other men at the bridge had to stay because of orders. They didn't choose because they love their country to stay there — there's this obligation everyone has.

The women in Birds of Prey who have felt so helpless at various points in their lives, who have been treated as less than, who have been consistently underestimated — in this story, they are finally making choices for themselves.

Harley had been under the Joker's thumb, and it's a huge turning point when she admits to the world she's no longer associated with him and must stand on her own two feet, no longer under his umbrella of protection. Finally responsible for her own actions.

Montoya stops coloring inside the lines of Gotham City PD because they have passed her over for promotion and treat her with zero respect. In following her own path, she uncovers the evils of Ewan McGregor. She's on his trail.

Black Canary is someone who has not wanted to live in her mother's shadow — someone else who had the vocal powers that she does. She balks at Montoya's suggestion that she follow in the senior Dinah's footsteps. However, it is her choice near the end of the film to use the power she inherited. A choice she doesn't make lightly.

Huntress had everything taken from her and a specific mission she lived her life by that kept her going. Everything prior to this movie was in service of killing the men that killed her family. When she kills who she thinks is the last one, she's able to make the choice for how to continue forward. Montoya is integral in that, reminding her that Roman is the man at the top and Huntress can keep doing good for the world.

Cassandra Cain is shuttled around from person to person, place to place, in search of the diamond she swallowed. But she realizes these women do have her best interests at heart, and when she has the chance to start a new life with Harley as her apprentice, she makes that choice, she takes that chance.

Here's the issue. While I think Saving Private Ryan is a fascinating look at the things people go through during war, it gives all the characters an out. They don't have to be responsible for their actions. It can always be blamed on someone up the line. They don't have to come to terms with what they've done in the same way they would if they had made the choices themselves. The women of Birds of Prey — they're experiencing choice for the first time and we're seeing the consequences of that.

I know men and women are different — that's like half my podcast, probably. But despite the camaraderie among the men in Saving Private Ryan, we see how cruel they are to someone they see as an outsider — to the translator, Jeremy Davies — until really the last moments of the film. Whereas the relationships between the women in Birds of Prey develop. There's not immediate acceptance, but there are so many more shades of gray. It's not this immediate rudeness. No one compromises their snarkiness, but they are supportive of one another in the way that humans should be. Not just because they've been assigned the same team by the United States government.

Jeremy Davies the translator in Saving Private Ryan — he's annoying. And it's clear the other guys have a tight-knit thing and now they have this intruder in their midst. I'm not the most welcoming person. I hate new things. But these guys are hateful to Jeremy Davies. They mock everything he says. They ask him questions about the book he's writing so he'll start answering and then they shut him down. They tell Private Ryan he's a burden. There's very little compassion among these men, even with all they've faced.

They have moments of sadness for one another, for themselves — Adam Goldberg crying, holding the Nazi knife. Private Ryan at the end, crying when he's old. He knows he owes his life to these men. But in an abstract way, I didn't really feel the bonds of brotherhood would extend past the three hours of their lives that we watched. They're in it for now only, and then they'll all go back to their separate lives that they don't even tell these guys about. Tom Hanks — none of them knew he was a teacher. He's going to go back to that life, none of them are going to know about it. I mean, he's not, because he's dead, but you know what I mean. There was no "in" — this was always a "for now." Brotherhood is such a large part of this movie, but it doesn't feel lasting. It feels temporary, in these specific circumstances only.

In Birds of Prey, the women are fiercely independent but they always respect one another. I don't know how you can be in the army expecting someone to have your back and not have some form of respect for them. That's crazy to me.

The women in Birds of Prey — their bonds go beyond orders, beyond requirements and what's expected. They validate one another, value one another for their individual contributions. Sometimes they tease each other, sometimes they're frustrated, sometimes they say mean things. But at the end of the day, there's no competition between these women that is anything other than professional.

There are these moments. Harley will tell Huntress, you are so cool. When Black Canary beats up somebody that was about to get her, Harley's like, thanks. Such a genuine appreciation of someone else. Then she gives Black Canary that hair tie — another moment that was spoken about on Twitter a lot as proof that this movie was made by women. The fact that these women are in a fight and Harley says to Black Canary, who has very long hair, hair tie? And offers it to her. Black Canary says thanks and puts her hair up so she can keep fighting. This small moment that's really incredible.

Then later one of them says to Huntress, I love that name, Huntress. And Huntress says, and I love how you were able to kick so high in those really tight pants.

I'm not saying everything needs to be a love fest. But you can tell they're sizing each other up and they appreciate what each other brings to the table. Montoya apologizes to Harley for underestimating her, for thinking she was just the Joker's pawn.

There's such a humanity here that fleshes these characters out into more than the battle they are facing — into people that we can picture in a variety of contexts. The guys in Saving Private Ryan don't exist outside that movie and they don't exist outside that battle.

We don't know who these men are when they go back home, if they go back home.

Watch Birds of Prey. It is on HBO Max. Every one of those fight scenes was something new — it wasn't the same old same old. Exploding glitter and smells and a beanbag gun. It's so fun.

Hit me up at @tastelesspod on social media. We can talk about Margot Robbie, we can talk about her beanbag gun, which was such a fun weapon, or we can talk about how we all collectively forgot Vin Diesel was in Saving Private Ryan.

Age of Innocence: True Grit vs Seed of Chucky

Two movies featuring complicated relationships with dysfunctional mentors and familial duty that propels our heroes forward — it's True Grit vs Seed of Chucky.

Episode Transcript & Breakdown

Every episode of Tasteless, I take a critically acclaimed film and compare it to one that shares the same themes but didn't get the attention it deserves — and explain why that second movie is my pick. This week: two movies that feature complicated relationships with dysfunctional mentors and a familial duty that propels our heroes forward. It's True Grit versus Seed of Chucky.

True Grit

A stubborn teenager enlists the help of a tough U.S. Marshal to track down her father's murderer.

This movie came out in 2010 and has a 95% on Rotten Tomatoes. It was nominated for 10 Academy Awards and didn't win any of them — one of the most nominated films to not win an Oscar. They were nominated for everything, like every category, but this was the year that The King's Speech won a bunch of the awards. There was Black Swan, The Fighter, The Social Network, Inception. Poor True Grit. This was a tough year at the Oscars.

Over the course of this podcast, I have had to rewatch some movies that I've truly despised, but I've also really enjoyed some movies on a rewatch more than the first time I saw them, and this was one of them. I really did like rewatching True Grit. I think it's a fun movie.

Hailee Steinfeld plays Mattie Ross. Look, am I mad at her for coming in on Pitch Perfect 2 and sucking up all the screen time? Yes, okay? I'm sorry. I do think she's very talented. She was great in Edge of Seventeen, and I'm starting Dickinson soon because of my deep undying love for Ella Hunt. There's a groundedness in Hailee. She's obviously gorgeous and talented, but the way she has played teenager roles has always felt more authentic to me than some other actors. There's something about her that really does sink into the role where I'm not like, it's a kid actor.

She's starring in the upcoming Hawkeye Marvel show where she takes the mantle from Jeremy Renner. I'm excited about that. Basically, she's incredibly talented. So her Oscar category was baffling and honestly insulting. Despite her character having the most screen time and being the hero, the protagonist, Hailee Steinfeld was nominated for Best Supporting Actress in many award shows, including the Academy Awards. That's insane. She was the lead actress. She carried this movie alongside Jeff Bridges and Matt Damon.

At the age of 13 when cast, playing a 14-year-old, she carried this movie. 15,000 girls applied for the role. This was her theatrical film debut and she was absolutely meant to be there. This role is hers.

I love the old-timey bathroom humor when she is looking to find Jeff Bridges and she stakes him out — he's in an outhouse, and she's like, you've been at it quite some time. And he says, there is no clock on my business! Because he's in there pooping. She does say the title of the movie to him. She says, they tell me you're a man with true grit. Which is okay, but she's never cloying. She has such determination but still seems like she could be 14 years old. She doesn't seem too old for the part and she also doesn't rely on cutesy kid stuff. She just walks the line so perfectly.

But where she really won me over is when she's getting a horse — a horse named Little Blackie — and she says to the person taking care of the horses, what does he like for a treat? That's so sweet. She's like, what kind of treats should I give him? I love that.

There is a really rude piece of IMDB trivia that says Hailee Steinfeld got raves at the time largely because she was 16, closer in age to the book character aged at 14, than Kim Darby, who was 21 when she played the part — but really, while Steinfeld's performance is fine, it's really no different from Darby's original. This is why you can't trust the IMDB trivia that much. You always have to double-check it because some angry freak submitted that. Actually the other one is good too? They're the same? That's not trivia. That's your opinion, you weirdo.

Also in this movie we have Jeff Bridges as Rooster Cogburn, the US Marshal that Hailee hires to help her track down Tom Chaney, her father's killer. That's the heart of this movie — she's trying to find her father's murderer with Jeff Bridges. The cutest thing Jeff Bridges says in this movie is, you're no bigger than a corn nubbin. A corn nubbin! Did you guys ever see that movie The Vanishing, where Jeff Bridges is a serial killer and Kiefer Sutherland is trying to hunt him down and Sandra Bullock is killed by him? Great movie.

I like Jeff Bridges. I find him calming. His best role is obviously as the coach in Stick It. But this is pretty good too. I need someone like Rooster Cogburn in my life because while Hailee and I are spitting mad about everything, he's just like, ugh, look, it'll be fine. Of course I can shoot with only one eye. Let's just be chill. Although he also never stops talking, which I thought was a really funny beat — when they are traveling and he just keeps talking. It's like in a Real Housewives show when they keep putting a little clock down in the bottom corner and fast-forwarding to show that someone has not stopped talking for 40 minutes. I found it funny in this movie. Would hate it in real life, so maybe I actually couldn't travel with Rooster Cogburn.

Matt Damon plays LaBoeuf, a Texas Ranger. Matt Damon does well as kind of cheeky characters — a little saucy, like in The Martian, a little attitude. His first interaction with Hailee is both very funny and very upsetting. He just shows up in her bedroom, and when she wakes up and he's just there, she's like, what are you doing? And he's like, I could have had my way with you while you were sleeping. And she's like, oh no you gross. And he's like, you're very young and sick and unattractive to boot. What is happening here?

LaBoeuf is a little more straight-laced. He wants to bring Tom Chaney back to Texas to be hanged for killing a Texas senator. And Hailee is like, no way, he's going to hang here, for killing my dad. I want him to know that's why he's dying, not because of some dumb senator. Matt and Jeff strike up an unlikely friendship and both care for Hailee's well-being and do what they can to keep her safe.

Josh Brolin plays Tom Chaney. He is such a non-entity here. The name of Tom Chaney and what he represents is so much more important than the Tom Chaney we meet. Although Josh Brolin is a hunk and, more importantly, stepson to Barbra Streisand.

Maybe the most exciting part of this movie is when Hailee gets a letter from her family's lawyer and we hear it in voiceover and I immediately was like, oh my God, that's J.K. Simmons. And it was. He plays the voice of J. Noble Daggett, Mattie's lawyer. He has one line. Loved it for him. Love hearing that voice, those dulcet tones. J.K. Simmons is hot, by the way. When he got super buff, that weirded me out, but otherwise he's hot. He may still be super buff, actually. I haven't looked at J.K. Simmons' body in a little while.

Seed Of Chucky

Chucky and Tiffany are resurrected by their innocent gender-confused child, Glen/Glenda, and hit Hollywood, where a movie depicting the killer dolls' murder spree is underway.

Came out in 2004. Has a 34% on Rotten Tomatoes. This plot description to me is not totally accurate to what the movie actually is, but we'll get into it.

Let's talk the Chucky series. I didn't love the original — the killer doll possessed by the murderer Charles Lee Ray, serial killer. It was fine. I got it. I got why it spawned a series. But my favorite Chucky is I think Bride of Chucky, which introduces Jennifer Tilly as Tiffany, Chucky's love interest, and also has the insane Katherine Heigl subplot where they're trying to take her body. But Seed of Chucky is a close second. And I love that the later Chuckys had Fiona Dourif, who is Brad Dourif's daughter.

Brad Dourif is of course Chucky himself. He was also Wormtongue in Lord of the Rings. He was in Deadwood. He was in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest with Jack Nicholson. And as Chucky in this movie, he has a very "here's Johnny" moment with actually what I thought was a clever play on it. He axes his way through a door, peeks his little doll face through, pauses, gives the full Jack Nicholson Shining, pauses — and says, I can't think of a thing to say.

Chucky's snarky sense of humor, his glee in violence — it all works because of Brad Dourif. Look, Chucky is a possessed doll, possessed by a serial killer who's into voodoo, and that's how he winds up in a doll. It's all such a weird jumping-off point that I love when the movies get crazier and crazier, much like the Fast and Furious series. Each movie is crazier than the last one, and that's why they can make nine of them, ten of them. It works.

Charles Lee Ray had been dating Tiffany, played by Jennifer Tilly, and through various events Tiffany's soul is also transferred into a gross little doll in the fourth Chucky movie, Bride of Chucky. Which brings us to the fifth movie, Seed of Chucky, where Jennifer Tilly is playing Jennifer Tilly the actress, in films about the Chucky and Tiffany dolls killing people as depicted in the last film. Very meta, which I love when a movie pulls off a meta, it's like Ocean's Thirteen, where Julia Roberts plays George Clooney's ex as well as playing Julia Roberts and everyone's like, you look just like Julia Roberts. I love that stuff.

Jennifer Tilly plays an incredibly heightened version of herself — basically known for being slutty — and she has a rivalry with Julia Roberts in this movie, which I think is so funny. She's so game to be crazy that it makes the movie fun. She jokes around about the film Bound and her friendship with Gina Gershon. She jokes about how people perceive her. She brags to Redman — rapper, DJ, producer, who also plays himself — that she could get Gina Gershon to come hang out with them. She is desperately trying to seduce Redman so that she will be cast as the Virgin Mary in his upcoming Mel Gibson-esque Jesus movie. It's amazing.

What she doesn't know is that Tiffany in doll form — voiced by Jennifer Tilly — is obsessed with the real Jennifer Tilly and wants to inhabit her body so she can be famous. Tiffany is working on a plot to take Jennifer Tilly's body and put Chucky in Redman's body. And while all this is going on, they learn that they have a kid. And the kid learns that he has parents.

I'm calling him "he," even though the plot calls him "she." Let me get into it. Billy Boyd does the voice — Billy Boyd, aka Pippin from Lord of the Rings. This character is a kid — a doll kid, not a human kid — who has been used as a ventriloquist dummy. He sees Chucky and Tiffany on TV on an entertainment talk show, talking about the movie Jennifer Tilly is in. He realizes those are his parents. So he goes to find them.

They aren't sure if he is a boy or a girl. Chucky really wants a son, Tiffany wants a daughter, and the kid feels like he's not sure. So Chucky calls him Glen and Tiffany calls him Glenda. I'm calling him "him" because his dominant personality — the nicer version — is Glen. Glen is a little sweetie, and then Glenda, the other side of him, is a maniac killer.

Glen does not have multiple personalities, but is instead fractured by the burden of expectation put on him by his parents in this heightened world of doll madness where magic is possible, talking dolls are possible. Because he is incarnated later as real children — one evil Glenda and one sweet Glen — I think that gives my belief weight that it's not two sides of one person but in fact fully different characters struggling to survive and take dominance of this vessel, which is a doll, in the same way that Tiffany and Charles Lee Ray took over a doll vessel.

The gender thing is interesting. I'm sure there are a million ways it's insensitive when you go back and watch Seed of Chucky that I'm not picking up on. But as far as in the Chucky series, I liked that Chucky and Tiffany both had their own agendas but realized they needed to set them aside for the good of their kid. At one point Chucky says he doesn't need to take over Redman's body or have Tiffany take Jennifer Tilly's — that he's fine being a doll. He says, I have everything I could want. A beautiful wife, a multi-talented kid. They learn to accept Glen/Glenda for whatever they are.

Glen/Glenda is not gender dysphoria, but I love that Chucky and Tiffany learn to love Glen for who he or she is at the time.

John Waters has a role in this movie as Pete Peters, written specifically for him because he was a fan of the Child's Play movies. And as a personal assistant myself, I had an affinity for Joan, Jennifer Tilly's assistant in the movie, played by Hannah Spearritt. Hannah is of course an original member of S Club 7.

And yes, in this movie, a puppet masturbates into a cup. God, yes, it's not the classiest movie. But it's fun. That part's not fun. That part's so upsetting. John Waters watches. It's awful.

Shared Themes

Hailee in True Grit and Glen in Seed of Chucky have complicated relationships with their mentor figures. Both feel a certain amount of obligation to their parents. Hailee is dead set on avenging her father's death while Glen has been seeking his parents to find his origins. Both characters are on these missions to gain some sense of peace in a complicated world, and both discover mentors who are not quite what they expected, but exactly what they needed. Mentors who are tough, are dysfunctional, who are strange, but who allow them to explore different parts of themselves.

Hailee is a go-getter. She's a problem solver. She doesn't wait around for anyone else, instead deciding to take matters into her own hands. But upon meeting Jeff Bridges, she has to chill a little bit. Jeff Bridges' approach is much more lackadaisical. Matt Damon's is very law-focused — on what is legally right and on the task he has been assigned, rather than the emotional ties. While Hailee's goal is vengeance and making herself feel whole. She learns from the two men, although she'd never admit it to them.

Glen in Seed of Chucky has been abused from a young age with no hope for a better future and no idea of anyone even remotely like himself being out there. He only knows what his stamp tells him — on his wrist, "Made in Japan." And then he sees on the TV that there are people that look like him, people who can tell him his origins. But meeting them isn't quite what he expected.

His mom and dad love him, but they both have their issues. His father is a serial killer who doesn't want to stop, while his mother really wants to steal Jennifer Tilly's body. Glen has time with each of them. He explores what it means to be a killer like Charles Lee Ray, and he explores being the perfect daughter that Tiffany wants to raise to assuage her guilt over not being in her child's life.

Let's face it: the adults in the lives of Hailee and Glen are not the most reliable or the most normal, so the younger protagonists are forced to take on more than most people their age would be responsible for.

In True Grit, Hailee takes over the entirety of her father's last wishes — his burial, transporting his body, and the punishment of his killer. She brushes off her mother's concerns, ignoring pleas for her to return home. She thinks if she doesn't do this, no one will, and sees herself as the only person who can mete out the just punishment Tom Chaney deserves. Everyone else was ready to wash their hands of it, but Hailee — at least partially because she's young — is very focused on what is fair, what is right.

I think when you're younger you worry a lot about fairness. You learn about it in school, in kindergarten, and you find yourself angry when you begin to realize the world doesn't align with what is just. Hailee is holding on to that somewhat childish notion, but enacting it in a very grown-up way. She's responsible for herself and her family and their legacy in a way no child should have to be. She sets out to tail a bandit as a tween in the company of gruff adult men.

She winds up spending her time with two men who live outside the regular boundaries of life and she has to keep her composure, also showing them who's boss. She needs to be tough enough to gain the respect of these grown men — men who shoot and fight and spit and lose body parts, an eye and a tongue. Hailee doesn't get to play with other kids and she bristles at the notion that she would be treated as a child. She wants to be treated as Jeff Bridges' employer — not just as an equal, but as the boss of what's going on.

In Seed of Chucky, Glen is roped into the murderous schemes of his father and the stalkerish schemes of his mother. He never had the chance to be a child. He was forced into being a weird little ventriloquist dummy for much of his life. And then when he finally finds the two people he thinks will take care of him, they use him to work out their own issues.

Tiffany wants to stop murdering. She never loved it like Chucky does and doesn't like the guilt and stress that comes with it. While Chucky feels like who he is will be compromised, taken from him, if he doesn't continue his path of carnage and terror. So Glen must try to keep up with each of them, wanting to earn their love, and he becomes two different people — fractured in his quest to meet their expectations.

With his father, Glen explores masculinity. But instead of aping his father's cruelty, he becomes much gentler, only killing with Chucky when it's by mistake. With his mother, he explores a feminine side, but this becomes where he unleashes his mania, where he gives in to the murderous tendencies his father encourages. Glen doesn't fit into a neat little box, and he can't quite match the expectations set for him by either parent. He has to come to terms with who he is and who he can be without their influence.

What Seed Of Chucky Does Better

Because this is Tasteless, while I did really enjoy True Grit on a rewatch, we're going to talk about a few things that I think Seed of Chucky did better.

In True Grit, Hailee hides herself for the entirety of the film. She stays resolutely the same, closed off, with the same facade. While Glen changes because of what happens to him and explores other ways to live. I think Hailee is an incredible actress and I enjoy her character in True Grit, but we never — not for a moment — see her as a child, as a tween. That's totally True Grit's prerogative, not to show us that side of her. But because she has her walls up for the entirety of the film, from when she first is negotiating about her father's dead body to when she is an adult who learns Jeff Bridges has died just days before she arrived to visit with him — we don't see her. We don't see her crack. We don't see any sort of break in her armor.

I got more growth from Jeff Bridges, who starts off as a bit of an unreliable drunk but when the film crescendos he is hell-bent on saving Hailee at all costs. He has loyalty. He has true grit. We see Matt Damon go from wanting to be solo to appreciating the companionship of Jeff and Hailee and respecting them for their tenacity, despite having very different methods. I didn't get a moment like that from Hailee. I didn't need her crying over a doll or something, but the toughness makes it hard to empathize when we never see a crack in the armor.

In Seed of Chucky, Glen has been forced into speaking the words his owner chooses, used as a prop for someone else's act, for someone else's life. He doesn't know where he came from or who he is. He only knows a life of servitude. He's meek and sad and unsure of himself. He flees to find his parents when he sees them on TV, unsure of what he'll discover when he reaches them.

When he does, he's horrified at some of their choices, at their brutal slaying of the props guy. He lets it be known he questions them while also quivering in fear — he wets himself, the doll. Again, this isn't the classiest movie. As the film goes on, we see him continue to use his voice and to get stronger with it. He wears his heart on his sleeve and tries to be fully himself with his parents while also being open to trying new things.

Glenda is the ultimate id — the instinctual, consequence-free, primitive part of personality, exploring everything Glen himself thinks he's against.

We see these two figures war with one another as Glen tries to combine the parts of himself into a stronger whole. Eventually the two pieces are transferred to two real kids. Instead of one side winning out, each side is allowed to be explored fully on its own and to stand alone.

There is a revenge element in both films. People who have been wronged are looking to make themselves whole in whatever way they can. But the revenge of True Grit is just not as satisfying as the revenge that Glen must enact in Seed of Chucky.

We learn over the course of True Grit that Tom Chaney's death is less important than Hailee coming to terms with her father's fate. She wants to feel like there is justice in the world. When she finally does meet Tom Chaney — Josh Brolin — it's so anticlimactic. She is captured and he isn't even in charge of the capture; he's just there. There is something to be said for her finally meeting the man she has made in her mind to be this huge figure, this evil, and he's just a sad random dude. But man, it does not make for the most thrilling revenge tale.

Glen's revenge in Seed of Chucky is much more heat of the moment, but is an important step for him to take as he becomes his own person. Chucky tries to kill Tiffany, and Glen is devastated, so he kills Chucky himself out of anger and to protect Tiffany in her last moments. Chucky thinks at first that it is the bloodthirsty Glenda that kills him, but Glen reveals that it was him — that the mild-mannered Glen that Chucky didn't have a lot of respect for had the fortitude to kill his own father.

Chucky and Tiffany have a complicated and volatile relationship, and she supports him time and time again, but Glen won't allow Chucky to get away with killing her. Tiffany has been so supportive of Glen being who he is. She doesn't need him to do what she likes. She just wants him to be healthy and happy. Killing Chucky won't bring back Tiffany and in fact leaves Glen with no parents — so we think at first. But he acts on instinct, trying to keep Tiffany safe in her last moment. There's satisfaction in that.

They're as dumb as these movies are — they're fun. And there's an arc, and there is growth. Look, if you haven't watched the Chucky movies, I get it. I do. But they are fun. I don't think the first three are fun. I like four onward.

True Grit is on HBO Max. Seed of Chucky is on Free Peacock as well as Showtime. If you want to talk about these movies, hit me up at @tastelesspod on social media. We can talk about Jennifer Tilly being such a fun delight. We can talk about how gross these dolls look — truly. But the visual effects in these movies are stellar. These dolls are so gross.